Age of Accountability

[Winman]

Cut in sunder dichotomeo, or two parts, the dictionary I have defines it here in Luke 12:46 as possibly being figuratively as a scourging would because the disobedient one is still surviving. Again the figure is that the believer who has been away when the Lord returns has no rewards but wood, hay and stubble. The servant of the Lord is the one we are looking at, very, very seldom is an unbeliever ever refered to as a servant a doulos the bondservant This is the same word used of the Lord as servent, the same as Paul as a servant and as servants of God.

Well, this is one of those very seldom instances where a unbeliever is referred to as a servant.

And what is the context? Jesus is speaking of returning suddenly and finding this servant doubting his return (a scoffer) , beating the manservants and maidens, and being drunken. He was not prepared like the man who came to the wedding without a wedding garment, or the virgins who did not have oil in their lamps. Jesus said this man would be cut asunder and appointed his portion with the unbelievers.

To believe this is a saved man is a HUGE stretch. This passage says nothing about rewards but says the man will be cut in two and appointed his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS.

 

[revmwc]

Well, this is one of those very seldom instances where a unbeliever is referred to as a servant.

And what is the context? Jesus is speaking of returning suddenly and finding this servant doubting his return (a scoffer) , beating the manservants and maidens, and being drunken. He was not prepared like the man who came to the wedding without a wedding garment, or the virgins who did not have oil in their lamps. Jesus said this man would be cut asunder and appointed his portion with the unbelievers.

To believe this is a saved man is a HUGE stretch.

Not by the dictionary and concordence refernces. Jesus is the lord of the servant in this and therefore this is a carnal very carnal believer. Who will receive wood hay and stubble in his place with the unfaithful believers. The greek word bares it out and the context also.

 

[Iconoclast]

All persons are guilty and accountable to God at conception

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

 

[revmwc]

All persons are guilty and accountable to God at conception

So when did the first sin occur in the garden? When did the person becvome accoutable for it?

 

[Winman]

Not by the dictionary and concordence refernces. Jesus is the lord of the servant in this and therefore this is a carnal very carnal believer. Who will receive wood hay and stubble in his place with the unfaithful believers. The greek word bares it out and the context also.

This is also shown in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

This servant is called evil and a hypocrite. And I think you know that Jesus is speaking of hell when he says there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I doubt this will convince you, you have made up your mind, but I believe this man is clearly an unbeliever doomed to hell, yet in Luke it says he KNEW his master's will.

The unregenerate can understand some spiritual matters.

 

[percho]

I asked what you meant by the post.

In reality it means the same as what Bro Jim1999 posted from Romans.

That child like anyone is dependent on him that calleth or as Jesus said with man it is impossible for anyone to enter the kingdom of God but with God all things are possible.

 

[revmwc]

This is also shown in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servantshall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

This servant is called evil and a hypocrite. And I think you know that Jesus is speaking of hell when he says there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I doubt this will convince you, you have made up your mind, but I believe this man is clearly an unbeliever doomed to hell, yet in Luke it says he KNEW his master's will.

The unregenerate can understand some spiritual matters.

He is still a servant and expecting his Master, how many believers do you know that are called hypocrite even today? I believe I have heard that term in regards to many of my fathers generation, my father wasn't and neither were most of that generation but my generation called them that. I didn't but I know many that did. My point the same greek word is used and it is still a servant that is saying his Master delayed. The original of course overrides the english.

 

[Iconoclast]

So when did the first sin occur in the garden? When did the person becvome accoutable for it?

when Adam violated this command

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[revmwc]

Look at God's command:

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So when would death come to man when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil until then he and she were not accountable for their sin.

Now notice in Genesis 3 what Eve says to the serpent about that tree,
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Notice what I bolded, she lied about what God said, but death the penalty for sin, only attached when they gained the knowledge of good and evil from eating of the tree and having their eyes opened.
The same with babies and young children, until their eyes are opened to their sinful state they are not accountable for their sin. Eve was not accontable until she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, even though she lied or misrepresented what God had commanded.

 

[Iconoclast]

Notice what I bolded, she lied about what God said, but death the penalty for sin, only attached when they gained the knowledge of good and evil from eating of the tree and having their eyes opened.
The same with babies and young children, until their eyes are opened to their sinful state they are not accountable for their sin. Eve was not accontable until she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, even though she lied or misrepresented what God had commanded.

no...wrong
17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.

babies are conceived in sin,,eve was not,,, you are ignoring the clear teaching of romans 5
eve was deceived and added to Gods word..Adam as federal head died for all mankind

 

[TCassidy]

People are not sinners because they sin. They sin because they are sinners.

David said he was not only born in sin, but was in sin from the moment of his conception. Psalm 51:5.

 

[revmwc]

no...wrong
17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.

babies are conceived in sin,,eve was not,,, you are ignoring the clear teaching of romans 5

We are born spiritually dead seperated from understanding spiritual things and an old sin nature. Because of the osn in us (tresspass and sins result),that will lead us to sin, how does that constitute a baby and young children being held accountable for them. Instead of them being held unaccountable, until they come into the knowledge of sin (good and evil) in their lives. Eve sinned (lied about what God said) before she ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but the penalty of sin did not attached until after they ate of that fruit. Once they became accountable because of their gaining knowledge of good and evil (sin). They knew they violated God's command and were ashamed because they were found naked. they became accountable for sin and the penalty attached.

 

[Iconoclast]

We are born spiritually dead seperated from understanding spiritual things and an old sin nature. Because of the osn in us (tresspass and sins result),that will lead us to sin, how does that constitute a baby and young children being held accountable for them. Instead of them being held unaccountable, until they come into the knowledge of sin (good and evil) in their lives. Eve sinned (lied about what God said) before she ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but the penalty of sin did not attached until after they ate of that fruit. Once they became accountable because of their gaining knowledge of good and evil (sin). They knew they violated God's command and were ashamed because they were found naked. they became accountable for sin and the penalty attached.

she did not lie,she added to it...

how does that constitute a baby and young children being held accountable for them

They are accountable having sinned in Adam...it is a point action....ALL SINNED.All died.
Infants would not die if they were not sinners....

This is at the heart of the gospel.....

18So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;

19for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous

If you deny the imputation of adams sin, you deny the imputation of Christs righteousness

To say the infant can only be accountable for its own sins of comission, would mean the sinner would have to only have his own righteousness

 

[Tater77]

To say the infant can only be accountable for its own sins of comission, would mean the sinner would have to only have his own righteousness

Ezekiel 18:4 (New International Version)

4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.​

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (New International Version)

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.​

Adam gave us a sin nature, but not guilt. I am a sinner BECAUSE of what Adam did, but only guilty for my own sins. Read the whole chapter, its quite interesting.

For those that say children are guilty, how do you address this?

Ezekiel 18 (New International Version)

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.​

The proverb fits right into Augustinian theology. So why would the LORD God Himself ban it?

Now this one baffled even Augustine.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 (New International Version)

4 For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.​

Now this is the LORD speaking. If He called them innocent, who are we to say otherwise? I haven't even begun to get started. Want to see more?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Here's my view:

Age of Accountability

 

[percho]

Look at God's command:

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So when would death come to man when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil until then he and she were not accountable for their sin.

Now notice in Genesis 3 what Eve says to the serpent about that tree,
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Notice what I bolded, she lied about what God said, but death the penalty for sin, only attached when they gained the knowledge of good and evil from eating of the tree and having their eyes opened.
The same with babies and young children, until their eyes are opened to their sinful state they are not accountable for their sin. Eve was not accontable until she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, even though she lied or misrepresented what God had commanded.

We do not know what God told Eve. We assume it was the same as he told Adam but Eve came along after Adam was told.

 

[percho]

The big lie told that day was, "You shall not surly die" and is still believed today and is the reason no one believes Christ died for their sin, They believe the body of Christ died for their sin Myself I don't believe that will cut it.

I might add the concept of the age of accountability is directly related to this lie. We want to be in control of our soul instead of putting it in the hands of the living God.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[revmwc]

We do not know what God told Eve. We assume it was the same as he told Adam but Eve came along after Adam was told.

The point is Eve statement adds to what God commanded and is a lie, whether Adam added it or Eve added it. It is still a lie, a misrepresentation of what was said and it added to what God said. If we add to or take away from scripture are we guilty of sin? If yes then so too was this, but the accountability came when they ate and gained knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Winman]

If yes then so too was this, but the accountability came when they ate and gained knowledge of good and evil.

Rev, I agree with you here completely. What made Adam and Eve sinners was the knowledge they aquired when they ate the forbidden fruit. You are correct, Eve misrepresented God's word in her response to the serpent, but because she had no knowledge between good and evil she was not judged a sinner.

Being a "sinner" is not a state of potential, but a JUDGMENT for actual sins committed. This is why a newborn baby cannot be a sinner, as they cannot commit sin. Name me one sin a newborn baby can knowingly perform.

I have the potential to rob a bank, but I am not a bank robber, (at least yet) as I have not robbed a bank.

What man did receive in the garden from Adam and Eve is the knowledge of good and evil. We do inherit this, but just like a tree, we are born with the seed. The seed must grow into a tree before it can bear fruit. Likewise, this knowledge takes time to mature to where a child can understand right from wrong. There are many scriptures that support this, Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11...

But having the potential to sin does not make you a sinner. Adam and Eve had the ability and potential to sin the day they were created, or else they could not have sinned. But they were called "very good".

You become a sinner when you both KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY commit actual sin.

This is why Paul could say he was alive without the law once. Was Paul alive before the law was written? NO! I believe this is speaking of when he was a child and could not know and understand the law. But when he matured to the point he could understand the law and willingly sinned, he spiritually died.

 

[percho]

Before Adam sinned and brought death to mankind. We all began as babies and some live longer than others. This was true.
And as it is appointed unto men once, to die, but after this the judgment:
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The appointment was made.

Does the word of God specifically teach dying and going to heaven or hell OR
Did Jesus come teaching the gospel of the kingdom of God and the only way for anyone that had ever been born of woman, that is born of the flesh would have to be born again or born from above if you prefer in order to see or enter or as Paul wrote inherit the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh. Some have died awaiting judgement others are alive waiting to die to be awaiting judgement. Jesus said, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God. According to Acts 2:30 Peter said David was a prophet so I assume he will be there also yet on that day Peter said David was both dead and buried. Both? The person, the personality, the soul David was dead and according to Acts 13: the flesh of his body did see corruption. On this day David's soul was in the realm of the dead Hades. This same prophet David speaking of the resurrection of Christ said, that his soul was not left in hell, (Hades) neither his flesh did see corruption.
He would have seen corruption had he not been raised when he was.
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, Acts 13:34
The soul of Jesus was raised from the realm of the dead, Hades and given an incorruptible body.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God will be righteous in the day of judgement.