Age of the earth

[olegig]

Just a word of caution Olegig, if you do not hold to precisely the same postions of many on this board you will labled as a "liberal with a fatal disease, heretic or blasphemer. Just giving you a heads up.

Thanks for the heads-up; but after several years on the old MS boards, I have pretty thick skin.
As long as the little red "X" on the top right of my screen works, I'll be fine.

Concerning the point in question now, that of when sin entered, I would refer to:
Romans 5:12 (King James Version)
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Please note in the above verse it states "sin entered into the world",,,,it does not say "sin entered into the earth".

I have no doubt the sin of Adam and Eve at the Fall was the first sin to stain God's good creation of this world, and I have no doubt this same sin started all death of this world.

 

[webdog]

And, what am I "half right" or "half wrong" about?

...that one of us will be surprised.

 

[quantumfaith]

It's not whether or not I see a problem with it. It's comparing what you say against the Bible. God tells us that sin brought death into the world. So how could there be death before sin?

Again, I say if there was death only of animals and plants before sin, then how could the creation be good since God says death is the enemy?

Also, I noted that you said you think maybe God could have made man by changing one of the apelike forebears (that is not the way you said it but it's what I understood you were saying). But this is not what God tells us when says that he formed Adam from the ground/dust. In fact, I think that is why God is so specific here - this totally contradicts an evolutionary belief that man came from some kind of animal.

So as I read the account, God warned Adam, do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.....

But he did not die immeadiately as the text suggests, he lived many many more years, thus, imho, the death spoken of here was more importantly "spiritual death" separation from the presence and relationship with His maker.

 

[quantumfaith]

...that one of us will be surprised.

Thanks for being honest and admitting that you might be surprised.

 

[webdog]

Thanks for the heads-up; but after several years on the old MS boards, I have pretty thick skin.
As long as the little red "X" on the top right of my screen works, I'll be fine.

Concerning the point in question now, that of when sin entered, I would refer to:
Romans 5:12 (King James Version)
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Please note in the above verse it states "sin entered into the world",,,,it does not say "sin entered into the earth".

I have no doubt the sin of Adam and Eve at the Fall was the first sin to stain God's good creation of this world, and I have no doubt this same sin started all death of this world.

Talk about splitting hairs :laugh: That's exactly what it is saying in context. Semantics games...

 

[webdog]

Thanks for being honest and admitting that you might be surprised.

Not quite

 

[Marcia]

So as I read the account, God warned Adam, do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.....

But he did not die immeadiately as the text suggests, he lived many many more years, thus, imho, the death spoken of here was more importantly "spiritual death" separation from the presence and relationship with His maker.

Yes, it was spiritual death immediately, but physical death also came. Romans 5 says death came with sin - the Bible teaches clearly that death is both physical and spiritual, and that man's sin affected creation (Gen. 3, Rom. 8). So there was no physical death in creation before sin.

 

[olegig]

Talk about splitting hairs :laugh: That's exactly what it is saying in context. Semantics games...

I suppose you could phrase it "splitting hairs" however your argument would be with the author of the scriptures, not me.
I am just relating what the Bible says, and if one does not "split some hair" and recognize that the Bible uses the term "earth" differently from the term "world" then one will only be confused as is illustrated here.

I read the Bible as if God meant what He said and said what He meant. Man is the one who who tries to make it read as man would wish.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, it was spiritual death immediately, but physical death also came. Romans 5 says death came with sin - the Bible teaches clearly that death is both physical and spiritual, and that man's sin affected creation (Gen. 3, Rom. 8). So there was no physical death in creation before sin.

I dont see anything in Gen 3 that indicates that there was no physical death prior to Adam and Eve, if fact I dont see any statement that indicates Adam and Eve were created to physically live for ever, after all, God in his omniscience knew exactly what the course events were going to be.

 

[webdog]

I dont see anything in Gen 3 that indicates that there was no physical death prior to Adam and Eve, if fact I dont see any statement that indicates Adam and Eve were created to physically live for ever, after all, God in his omniscience knew exactly what the course events were going to be.

Ecc. 3:11 states God has created man with the desire to live forever, which means they were created with the desire to be immortal...an impossibility if death was part of God's creation He deemed "good".

 

[webdog]

I suppose you could phrase it "splitting hairs" however your argument would be with the author of the scriptures, not me.
I am just relating what the Bible says, and if one does not "split some hair" and recognize that the Bible uses the term "earth" differently from the term "world" then one will only be confused as is illustrated here.

I read the Bible as if God meant what He said and said what He meant. Man is the one who who tries to make it read as man would wish.

Actually earth is but one part of kosmos which includes all material creation...the universe. Scripture states that all creation groans under this curse.

 

[quantumfaith]

Ecc. 3:11 states God has created man with the desire to live forever, which means they were created with the desire to be immortal...an impossibility if death was part of God's creation He deemed "good".

Death has always been an "enemy" of man. It represents the fear of loss and the unknown. It, is in my humble opinion, a trait that God has placed in man, in fact, we see it in the animal kingdom as well. I dont see "set eternity in the hearts of men" speaks about whether or not the occurence of death happened at all before Adam and Eve.

 

[olegig]

I dont see anything in Gen 3 that indicates that there was no physical death prior to Adam and Eve, if fact I dont see any statement that indicates Adam and Eve were created to physically live for ever, after all, God in his omniscience knew exactly what the course events were going to be.

Is your argument that God is also subject to death?


Genesis 1:27 (King James Version)
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[quantumfaith]

Is your argument that God is also subject to death?


Genesis 1:27 (King James Version)
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Absolutely not, where in the world did you get that. It was Nietzsche who made the ridiculous claim that God is dead.

 

[olegig]

Actually earth is but one part of kosmos which includes all material creation...the universe. Scripture states that all creation groans under this curse.

I would agree that God created this present world about 6,000 yrs ago in six days upon this earth that, as yet, I have no idea how old it is.

I would consider this world to include all living things which IMHO also includes the rocks and mountains that groan for His return.

 

[quantumfaith]

Is your argument that God is also subject to death?


Genesis 1:27 (King James Version)
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God is infinite in time and existence. He was, is and ever shall be.

 

[olegig]

Absolutely not, where in the world did you get that. It was Nietzsche who made the ridiculous claim that God is dead.

I got that from your statement in post 169 that I quoted.

You said you saw nothing in Gen that would indicate Adam and Eve were to live forever before the Fall; however IMO one should consider that they were created in the image of the living God.
So it follows that if one feels created Adam and Eve were subject to death, then God would also be subject to death.

I do note you later say:
"God is infinite in time and existence. He was, is and ever shall be."
Which is a statement to which I can agree. But does it not also follow that if God is infinite, His creation in His image would also be infinite?

 

[webdog]

Death has always been an "enemy" of man. It represents the fear of loss and the unknown. It, is in my humble opinion, a trait that God has placed in man, in fact, we see it in the animal kingdom as well. I dont see "set eternity in the hearts of men" speaks about whether or not the occurence of death happened at all before Adam and Eve.

Study the Hebrew for "eternity"...it transcends much more than the fear of loss.

 

[quantumfaith]

I got that from your statement in post 169 that I quoted.

You said you saw nothing in Gen that would indicate Adam and Eve were to live forever before the Fall; however IMO one should consider that they were created in the image of the living God.
So it follows that if one feels created Adam and Eve were subject to death, then God would also be subject to death.

I do note you later say:
"God is infinite in time and existence. He was, is and ever shall be."
Which is a statement to which I can agree. But does it not also follow that if God is infinite, His creation in His image would also be infinite?

Once again, it comes down to how you interpret "imago dei" of which volumes has been written, for me, created in the "image" of God means created with rational thought and free will.

 

[quantumfaith]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...9yyJouMqwLC7uzFCA&q=The+Science+of+God&hl=en#