Age Old Arguement of Worship

[JonC]

And this is topic is just one of the reasons why certain segments of Christianity subscribe to the Regulative Principle of Worship (we are to worship in the manner in which scripture prescribes) as opposed to the Normative Principle of Worship (we are allowed to worship in any manner not prohibited by scripture). The OP is from the Normative viewpoint. This is a debate that has raged forever and anon. No matter which approach to worship you practice, the idea that you can lead people to a "meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit" through music selection is theologically unsound. If it were true then those people who do not get with the music are left out in the cold. The church I attend recently changed from traditional hymns to a praise band. This is great for the Millennial generation, but it has been to the dismay of the many older saints in the church. I guess the Millennials now have a meaningful connection to the Holy Spirit while the seniors are viewed as intransigent and hindering the Holy Spirit. Subjectiveness in worship misses the biblical model.

I agree with much you post here. What I love about hymns are how they link generations. Tradition for tradition sake is not always good, but tradition itself is also not necessarily a bad thing. I'd be more content with contemporary praise music if they would settle down and stop changing every month. Throughout my life I've gained so much from the song's I've learned as a child and the theology that they contained. Many contemporary songs have a strong theological basis - but they change so often the message is lost. Perhaps this is why so many songs go from Christian radio to church. I don't know....just a thought.

But I'm also curious, do you believe that there was a time when Baptist hymns were considered "contemporary" and not suitable for worship (i.e., was there a time when the introduction of hymns left others "out in the cold")? It just seems "regulative" really does not mean to worship ONLY as Scripture prescribes (nothing but instruments mentioned in the Bible for worship, no dedicated church building, bringing your own meal to the Lord's Supper, etc.). Even "regulative" becomes subjective at some point.

 

[Reformed]

But I'm also curious, do you believe that there was a time when Baptist hymns were considered "contemporary" and not suitable for worship (i.e., was there a time when the introduction of hymns left others "out in the cold")?

There were many times when this debate has been had. Typically it was found in the more conservative Baptist churches. I hope our resident historian @rlvaughn may be able to help us out with some citations from Baptist history. There are some exclusive psalmody Baptist churches that eschew modern worship songs or even hymns. I may be mistaken, but I believe some of them are of the Primitive Baptist persuasion?

 

[Jerome]

Some 'Reformed Baptists' have latched onto the exclusive psalmody (singing paraphrased Psalms) contrivance from Presbyterianism.

Reformed Baptist Church of Topeka


Tom Chantry, historian of USA 'Reformed Baptists', explains his personal take on all this:

chantrynotes.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/preaching-from-the-choir/

of exclusive Psalmody...like King James’ Agrippa, I can say, “Almost thou persuadest me…”

my church opens each week with a Psalm...in solid, Reformed fashion...all the congregants singing together....yesterday morning...the 103rd Psalm, as rendered in the 1912 Psalter of the United Presbyterians

I’ve always wished the Trinity Hymnal included a complete Psalter....They need truly singable metric translations and tunes for the Psalms...which is where the Baptist Edition of the Trinity Hymnal failed; they put a bunch of poor Psalm arrangements at the end....the Trinity does not include all the Psalms.

 

[robycop3]

Many old hymns were written in style contemporary for church music in the time they were written, to be accompanied by the instruments then in use.

 

[1689Dave]

I think the "cottage prayer meeting" is closer to the house churches of the early NT era. I think as we move away from this the more worldly churches become. Worldly = everything from RCC church floor plans and decor to adrenaline driven hysteria confused with the move of the Spirit.

 

[JonC]

I think the "cottage prayer meeting" is closer to the house churches of the early NT era. I think as we move away from this the more worldly churches become. Worldly = everything from RCC church floor plans and decor to adrenaline driven hysteria confused with the move of the Spirit.

It also seem churches are mimicking college campuses (including coffee shops, organizational merchandise, and book stores) - I wonder if in an effort to reach a population or marketing strategy.

Anyway, there is a sense that truth itself is subjective. A Senator (I can't remember which one) commented the other day that Mrs. Ford should be able to tell "her truth". That's something catching on in the church (and not what I was speaking of regarding individual worship expressions). People express themselves differently, have different styles of expression, and operate at various "emotional" (at least externally) levels. But God is still not a God of chaos and unbiblical practices are....well... unbiblical.

 

[Aaron]

Hey everyone! I was reading through 2 Samuel 6 tonight and had some interesting thoughts I'd like to share and get your feedback on. In our church like many the debate of contemporary versus traditional style of music continues on. It is almost drawn down generational lines, almost, and most people are either all traditional or all contemporary too. So, here are the parts of the scripture that got me thinking on this path:
1- King David was seen by everyone dancing before God. He was so wrapped up in his joy and worship of God nothing else mattered.
2- Michal saw him and was upset by what she considered his undignified behavior. She felt his behavior was disrespectful of the crown he wore as king. Some say she went as far as to describe his behavior as lewd.

Here even in the Old Testament we have essentially the same argument the church is having today over music. The difference between David and Michal is how they respond to God. David would let go of himself to celebrate God however it felt right. Now, I know you think this conclusion makes you think I'm all contemporary, but you may be surprised. You see King David's relationship with God was very different than Michal and let's be honest very different than any of us have. So, the way David worshipped was based solely on that which lead me to the next road of thought:
1- We have no idea what "style", what songs we will sing in heaven. Simply because we have never been in the physical presence of God Almighty! We can try to imagine, but really our reaction to the joy of that moment will remain unknown to us until that time.
2- That makes the whole we only sing quiet reverent songs like an angel choir people wrong but it also makes the we are going to rock it out only in heaven wrong. I truly believe it will be music we can never even fathom here in this life on earth.
3- This makes the whole all contemporary or all traditional a silly debate. Period.

So, where does that leave us? I think that answer can be simple too if we are willing.
1- It is then the PURPOSE and RESPONSIBILTY of any church's music ministry to use whatever "style" of music necessary to lead your congregation to a place where they can make a meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit.
2- In other words its your responsibly as music leader to be the one that bends to meet the spiritual needs of your church; not try to force the church to bend to your personal spiritual needs. Remember you're the leader.

This means if you are in a church that loves hymns sing them whether YOU like them or not. If you are in a church that loves Praise music sing it whether YOU like it or not. Know your congregation and be willing to serve them first and your personal preferences second.

Thoughts?

You're right. It's an old argument. A tired old argument from an account that has no bearing on the decorum of Christian worship whatever, and didn't conform to the OT prescriptions, either. Who was David to lay his eyes on the Ark? He was not a priest. Why, when it came back to Israel from the Philistines, did not the priests insert the staves through the rings and bear it on their shoulders, as commanded, covered, back to the Tabernacle?

But what happens? David's dancing, people are jumping pews, and the next thing you know the oxen stumble and the Ark shifts and Uzza tries to catch it, and BOOM! He's dead. No more singin' and dancin'.

And we have no record of David dancing in the Tabernacle, nor at the door thereof. You want to go out to the back forty and dance in a Speedo to God, you go right ahead, but the there is an orderly decorum to be observed in the assembly.

 

[Marooncat79]

Sounds like the Regulative Principle vs Normative Principle argument

The Normative is basically anything in worship is ok as long as the Bible does not forbid it. Martin Luther

The Regulative Principle basically says God has established what is acceptable in worship ie prayer, reading scripture, communion, giving $, singing, preaching. See Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus as well as Sauls sacrafice which invoked the fury of God ( God had not told them to do it. They usurped Gods acceptable plan of Worship).

 

[rlvaughn]

But I'm also curious, do you believe that there was a time when Baptist hymns were considered "contemporary" and not suitable for worship (i.e., was there a time when the introduction of hymns left others "out in the cold")?

There were many times when this debate has been had. Typically it was found in the more conservative Baptist churches. I hope our resident historian @rlvaughn may be able to help us out with some citations from Baptist history. There are some exclusive psalmody Baptist churches that eschew modern worship songs or even hymns. I may be mistaken, but I believe some of them are of the Primitive Baptist persuasion?

Just stopped by and noticed this, so quickly (and hopefully can make it back later):

There was a time among the English Particular Baptists when congregational singing was controversial -- not just hymns, but singing, period. Baptist Music: To Sing or Not To Sing

I am not aware of any American Primitive Baptists who hold exclusive psalmody, though it wouldn't surprise me if some could be located. I do know one particular PB who created tunes to sing Psalms from the KJV text, but he wasn't an exclusive psalmodist. They also used Benjamin Lloyd's words-only hymn book. Most of the exclusive psalmodists of whom I am aware among Baptists are Reformed Baptists -- and probably influenced to that practice through the Reformed/Presbyterian tradition.

 

[Reformed]

Just stopped by and noticed this, so quickly (and hopefully can make it back later):

There was a time among the English Particular Baptists when congregational singing was controversial -- not just hymns, but singing, period. Baptist Music: To Sing or Not To Sing

I am not aware of any American Primitive Baptists who hold exclusive psalmody, though it wouldn't surprise me if some could be located. I do know one particular PB who created tunes to sing Psalms from the KJV text, but he wasn't an exclusive psalmodist. They also used Benjamin Lloyd's words-only hymn book. Most of the exclusive psalmodists of whom I am aware among Baptists are Reformed Baptists -- and probably influenced to that practice through the Reformed/Presbyterian tradition.

Good information. Thank you.

 

[Aaron]

Many old hymns were written in style contemporary for church music in the time they were written, to be accompanied by the instruments then in use.

Urban legend.

Paul mentions psalms, hymns and odes. Omits dithyrambs.