Agents of the Apoclypse

[LanceA]

They looked for Return of jesus Christ, not the rapture of the Church. As a consequence Scripture teaches that we should look for His Return.

Israel was brought under the judgment of God in 70 AD consistent with the promise of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24. Why is it that the pre-trig-rapture-ready crowd want Israel to go through 42 months of grrreat tribulation?

Who do you think the tribulation is for? It is to bring the Jews back to God. Everything is about the Jewish people the 7 years of tribulation

 

[Revmitchell]

Perhaps, but when will these men ever be held accountable for their errors that have been going on for decades? It's the same story decade after decade, they just shuffle the players according to what's hot in the news at the time.

I'm not angry, I fing it amusing yet somewhat sad. Go back and read who John R Rice thought the anti-Christ was. Go back and read Hal Lindsey and the Late Great Planet Earth, then his later addition. Then a decade later read his The Terminal Generation. (The one that had the 1980's as the last generation.)
Or how about John Walvoord re-writing his book when the world circumstances changed. Now that is smart, just change the names and the world powers and sell the same book to the next generation, Genius!
Now the next generation of "experts" come on the scene(Hagee, LaHaye, MacArthur) saying "no no, this is really it this time." and so the cycle continues and someday our grandchildren will be on this board having the same discussion because they will have forgotten the Hagees and Walvoords of the past. But I expect there will be a lot more preterist by then:wavey:

When will preterists be held accountable for their errors?

What s dumb thing to say. And yes you are angry.


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[OldRegular]

Perhaps, but when will these men ever be held accountable for their errors that have been going on for decades? It's the same story decade after decade, they just shuffle the players according to what's hot in the news at the time.

I'm not angry, I fing it amusing yet somewhat sad. Go back and read who John R Rice thought the anti-Christ was. Go back and read Hal Lindsey and the Late Great Planet Earth, then his later addition. Then a decade later read his The Terminal Generation. (The one that had the 1980's as the last generation.)
Or how about John Walvoord re-writing his book when the world circumstances changed. Now that is smart, just change the names and the world powers and sell the same book to the next generation, Genius!
Now the next generation of "experts" come on the scene(Hagee, LaHaye, MacArthur) saying "no no, this is really it this time." and so the cycle continues and someday our grandchildren will be on this board having the same discussion because they will have forgotten the Hagees and Walvoords of the past. But I expect there will be a lot more preterist by then:wavey:

The saddest thing about the whole pre-trig-rapture-ready-movement is that most do not know the basis for this belief is the John Nelson Darby doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. Then there is the mistaken belief by many that Israel is still the chosen people of God. Even some who don't believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace for Gentiles believe that Israel is still the elect of God. Beyond strange and I believe that at the present time Haggee is the worst of the lot!

Just found an interesting remark attributed to Lindsey:

One serious problem with Christendom's pre-trib rapture teaching is that it has no basis in pashat. Although pre-tribers often claim that their beliefs are based on the plain literal meaning of the scriptures, the reality is that such an approach does not produce a belief in a pre-trib rapture. Even Hal Lindsey, perhaps the worlds best known advocate of a pre-trib rapture, admits that his belief in such is not based on the plain literal meaning of the scriptures. Lindsey admits that he cannot "point to any single verse that clearly says the rapture will occur before… the tribulation." (The Rapture by Hal Lindsey p. 32). Instead Lindsey claims "pretribulationism is based largely on arguments from inference and silence." (ibid p. 31).

http://nazarenespace.com/page/the-premature-pretrib-rapture

 

[evangelist6589]

Did any of you actually read the book????????? The preterists probably not because of fear it could change their views. Escape the coming night was good but this one may be better. I say read this lay level book combined with MacArthur's commentary on Revelation and bingo your views are changed.

 

[kyredneck]

Who do you think the tribulation is for? It is to bring the Jews back to God. Everything is about the Jewish people the 7 years of tribulation

....only after two out of every three Jews are killed during the tribulation, right?

And, "Everything is about the Jewish people" is precisely what dispensationalism has morphed into on the whole.

 

[Grasshopper]

Yes I do believe in an inerrant scripture

You just contradicted yourself:

I believe sometimes they just think with their head instead of letting HS guide them

Perhaps you can point us to others scriptures that weren't guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Grasshopper]

When will preterists be held accountable for their errors?

What s dumb thing to say. And yes you are angry.


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Point me to books over the decades written by Preterist that had errors of false predictions in them, Mr. Happy.

I don't expect to get an answer.

 

[Revmitchell]

Point me to books over the decades written by Preterist that had errors of false predictions in them, Mr. Happy.

I don't expect to get an answer.

Hey there grumpypants, trying to tie all those who made bad predictions to dispensationalism and even especially Jeremiah is false. Grow up

 

[Grasshopper]

Hey there grumpypants, trying to tie all those who made bad predictions to dispensationalism and even especially Jeremiah is false. Grow up

As I suspected, a response but no answer.

 

[Revmitchell]

As I suspected, a response but no answer.

Really? That is all you got? You start with a false premise by making false claims of association thereby accusing someone of something they never did and this is all you got?


I suppose I cannot expect anything else.

 

[OldRegular]

Did any of you actually read the book????????? The preterists probably not because of fear it could change their views. Escape the coming night was good but this one may be better. I say read this lay level book combined with MacArthur's commentary on Revelation and bingo your views are changed.

Pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism is false doctrine. A couple of books by those who hold this false doctrine is not going to change anyone who holds the correct Biblical doctrine. In fact the classic pre-trib-dispensationalism is morphing into something called progressive dispensationalism which takes a more Biblical view of the Church for which Jesus Christ died.

Note: Emphasis in the following quote is mine!

PFRS Home > Doctrinal Studies > Progressive Dispensationalism >

Progressive Dispensationalism 101
The Basics
Copyright © Tim Warner

DISTINCTIVES OF PROGRESSIVE DISPENSATIONALISM

Progressive Dispensationalists see a progression of dispensational economies in a single unfolding plan to redeem mankind. We acknowledge only one means of salvation for all time, by grace through faith. The effect of the sacrifice of Christ was retroactive for the Old Testament saints who died in faith [Heb. 9:15], "that they should not be made perfect apart from us." [Heb. 11:40]. It was God's original purpose "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-- in Him., [Eph. 1:10]. Paul was referring to an already accomplished union of Old Testament and New Testament saints. "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." [Eph. 3:14,15].


THE PRIMARY DIFFERENCE - 'PARENTHESIS' vs. 'PROGRESSION'

Traditional dispensationalists typically see the 'church age' as an interruption or parenthetical period in God's dealing with Israel. The church is seen as unrelated to Israel and the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Believers of this dispensation are segregated from believers of other dispensations in purpose and destiny. Consequently, they see the new covenant as entirely future, concerning Israel during the Millennium. This segregation of saints is best seen in the concept of the 'Church' being exclusively the Bride of Christ to the exclusion of other saints. Progressive dispensationalists however believe the 'church age' is the fulfillment of certain promises in the Old Testament, regarding the new covenant, and salvation of Gentiles. Rather than being unrelated to God's program for Israel, the Church is an integral part of that program, and is currently participating in the new covenant promises in this dispensation. Progressive dispensationalists believe the New Covenant was inaugurated by Jesus Himself, by shedding His blood, [Luke 22:20, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:15]. Jeremiah prophesied the New Covenant would be made with Israel [Jer. 31:31-34]. A look at the Gospels shows the 'good news' was originally presented to Israel exclusively. In fact, when Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the gospel the first time He explicitly told them not to preach to Gentiles [Matt. 10:5,6]. Later we find Paul's acknowledgment of this fact with the words, "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" [Rom. 1:16, 2:9,10]. The crucial difference can be summed up as whether the Church is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, and whether saints of various dispensations should be seen as segregated.


JESUS INAUGURATED THE NEW COVENANT - ISRAEL NOT CAST ASIDE

God did not cast Israel aside, or withdraw the offer of the New Covenant because of Israel's rejection. Rather, Jesus established the New Covenant with a believing remnant of Israel, His Jewish disciples. Jesus said to them, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. [Luke 22:20]. In Romans 11, Paul argued strenuously that God has NOT cast Israel aside. "I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. ... Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." [Rom. 11:1,2,5]. Paul's point is NOT that God's program for Israel has been suspended, as Traditional Dispensationalism teaches, or even that God is finished with Israel, as 'Replacement Theology' teaches. Rather, "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." [vs. 25]. Consequently, part of Israel was not blinded. It was with this remnant that Jesus established the New Covenant.[Rom. 11: 16-29]

Paul concluded his thought in Romans eleven with the parable of the Olive Tree. Jews who did not accept Jesus were likened to natural branches broken off of the olive tree. That some natural branches remained in the tree, both before and after the unbelievers were broken off and wild branches grafted in, demonstrates a CONTINUOUS status of believing Jews both before and after Christ. The grafting in of the wild branches shows a uniting of Gentiles with the believing part of Israel. So, in effect, Paul has illustrated a continuation of God's fulfilling His covenants and promises with Israel in this dispensation, albeit with only a remnant. But, isn't that the way it has always been? Only a small remnant went into the 'promised land.' Only a small remnant returned from the Babylonian captivity. And only a remnant have received the New Covenant.

The fact that Gentiles of this dispensation partake in the Jewish covenants and blessings is clearly established in Scripture. For example, Paul encouraged the Gentile saints to collect an offering for their Jewish brethren in Jerusalem who were in need. "For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things." [Rom. 15:27]
http://www.pfrs.org/pd/001.html

 

[Grasshopper]

Really? That is all you got? You start with a false premise by making false claims of association thereby accusing someone of something they never did and this is all you got?


I suppose I cannot expect anything else.

Yet another non-answer.

 

[LanceA]

You just contradicted yourself:

I believe sometimes they just think with their head instead of letting HS guide them

Perhaps you can point us to others scriptures that weren't guided by the Holy Spirit.

I'm not talking about the bible. Referring to modern day ministers writing books

 

[OldRegular]

....only after two out of every three Jews are killed during the tribulation, right?

I will say this KY. These pre-trib-rapture-ready folks are really hard on the Jews whom they still call God's chosen people! Recently some Jew down in Florida took them to task for trying to hurry up the "grrreat tribulation" and the suffering of the Jews. Can't find his remarks on the internet. Perhaps they scrubbed them or him!

And, "Everything is about the Jewish people" is precisely what dispensationalism has morphed into on the whole.

You must remember that the basis for John Nelson Darby's pre-trib-dispensationalism is that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is only a "parenthesis", an "interruption", an "intercalation", in God's plan for Israel.

 

[Grasshopper]

I'm not talking about the bible. Referring to modern day ministers writing books

But you said this,

"If I remember correctly, the Apostles thought it was in their time as well."


1. So, why did they think a "coming" would happen in their time?

2. We're they inspired when they wrote those things concerning the soon to be coming?

 

[evangelist6589]

The thread is called "Agents of the Apocalypse" which you have not read yet can air your opinions. Sad... Please read the thread and the book before you post.

Pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism is false doctrine. A couple of books by those who hold this false doctrine is not going to change anyone who holds the correct Biblical doctrine. In fact the classic pre-trib-dispensationalism is morphing into something called progressive dispensationalism which takes a more Biblical view of the Church for which Jesus Christ died.

Note: Emphasis in the following quote is mine!

 

[Rolfe]

The thread is called "Agents of the Apocalypse" which you have not read yet can air your opinions. Sad... Please read the thread and the book before you post.

Nobody wants to play? :laugh:

Time to start issuing rabbits.