Aggressive Soul Winning

[evangelist6589]

Say the guy who lives his life in direct contradiction to the Bible and refuses to accept rebuke from the body.

Not understanding seems to be your chief mission in life. :thumbsup: Congrats, you won first place!

Is it possible for you to post without your sarcastic remarks?

 

[ShagNappy]

Is it possible for you to post without your sarcastic remarks?

Wasn't being sarcastic... :thumbsup:

 

[John of Japan]

And is this necessarily wrong?

1 Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

This passage is not about changing the church service to fit the preferences of a lost person, but about an individual adapting to another individual's culture to reach that person for Christ.

Yes, but when I was out doing door-knocking for an IFB ASW church, there was always an invitation given for them to attend church, and there was always an altar call at the end of the service. So, in effect, the goal was two-fold--go out and give them the gospel but also get people into the church to get saved.

But would you agree that ASW churches also seek to save sinners through the church service itself?

You're missing the point of SS. I'm certainly not against getting someone into church who is lost. I've done it myself, then seen them saved through an evangelistic message. What is different about the SS method is that it teaches changing church to fit the lost person's preference--his music and culture. But the primary Bible way is to go to where the sinner is.

In my experience there are elements of SS churches in ASW churches. The church I currently attend has traditional music service and P&W service. They have had a Christmas drama in the past but nothing in the past 3 years or so. They have a very aggressive missions and church planting program. They usually extend an invitation at the end of the sermon, but not always. They preach on sin, on repentance, on discipleship. The pastor doesn't wear a tie every Sunday, but never wears jeans (though guest speakers have done so). They preach Jesus is the only way to Heaven, they condemn universalism (Oprah religion), and all other philosophies and religions as being wrong. They abhor abortion and same-sex marriage. They have community service events. They have a bookstore and a coffee shop (the horror!).

All of this is good--and I've seen all of this in ASW churches that do not do SS, except for the casual wear by the preacher. But sorry, I don't know what P & W is.

When I think seeker sensitive I think about a P&W band, a preacher in jeans and a tee shirt, the main sanctuary stripped of any Christian symbolism, lots of TV screens, Powerpoint presentations, lots of mood lighting, a NLT or CEV Bible being used, people bringing cookies and/or doughnuts and coffee into the service, 20 minute sermons "relevant to modern life" and how to be a "successful --fill in the blank--", the word 'sin' isn't used, instead 'disease of the soul' or some other euphemism, repentance isn't spoken about, abortion and same-sex marriage is not condemned, Jesus as the only way is not emphasized, etc. etc.

This portrays what SS usually actually is--and it does not fulfill the definition of church as given in Eph. 4 and Heb. 10:25--a meeting where believers learn to serve God all week long, encouraging one another.

 

[quantumfaith]

We have not yet convinced you to change but then again in your church this may not happen.

I just don't understand it. Charles Stanley preaches on HELL, JUDGMENT, THE RETURN OF CHRIST and REPENTANCE. I do not understand his son.

I mean this Honestly. Not hatefully, YOU will never convince me, just as you do not wish to be like me in any way, I do not wish to be like you.

 

[evangelist6589]

I mean this Honestly. Not hatefully, YOU will never convince me, just as you do not wish to be like me in any way, I do not wish to be like you.

The issue you have is with the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:38
New King James Version (NKJV)
38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.


Enough said........

 

[quantumfaith]

The issue you have is with the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:38
New King James Version (NKJV)
38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.


Enough said........

I will close with this. I will not, in some bumper sticker mentality throw scriptural references back and forth with you. If my problem is with scripture, then yours is also.

 

[evangelist6589]

I will close with this. I will not, in some bumper sticker mentality throw scriptural references back and forth with you. If my problem is with scripture, then yours is also.

Then what is your authority?

 

[evangelist6589]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ditto here. At my church we create environments that "unchurched" people want to be a part of. If that is seeker friendly, call me guilty and proud of it.

1 John 2:15
New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 15:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Quantum I plead with you to read the scripture and take it seriously.

 

[quantumfaith]

1 John 2:15
New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 15:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Quantum I plead with you to read the scripture and take it seriously.

I do,I just do not take YOUR take. You have convinced yourself of your own self worth beyond the the simple standing of righteousness that you are granted because of your relationship with God through faith in Christ. You move so easily into self righteousness, much like that of Pharisees and other religious leaders of old and we know the condemnation that Christ pronounced on such. Perhaps you too......as much as you think I need to....should re-evaluate what you think you know. Perhaps you too should re-evaluate the posture of your heart...is it bent toward self righteousness, or toward humility? And if you did, perhaps you might be granted more response to your street preaching.

 

[Rippon]

I do,I just do not take YOUR take. You have convinced yourself of your own self worth beyond the the simple standing of righteousness that you are granted because of your relationship with God through faith in Christ. You move so easily into self righteousness, much like that of Pharisees and other religious leaders of old and we know the condemnation that Christ pronounced on such. Perhaps you too......as much as you think I need to....should re-evaluate what you think you know. Perhaps you too should re-evaluate the posture of your heart...is it bent toward self righteousness, or toward humility? And if you did, perhaps you might be granted more response to your street preaching.

Unfortunately I have to agree with qf here.

 

[InTheLight]

This passage is not about changing the church service to fit the preferences of a lost person, but about an individual adapting to another individual's culture to reach that person for Christ.

I agree, strictly speaking that is what the passage is about. But I believe it can have broader applications.

All of this is good--and I've seen all of this in ASW churches that do not do SS, except for the casual wear by the preacher. But sorry, I don't know what P & W is.

P&W = Praise and worship band.

 

[evangelist6589]

I do,I just do not take YOUR take. You have convinced yourself of your own self worth beyond the the simple standing of righteousness that you are granted because of your relationship with God through faith in Christ. You move so easily into self righteousness, much like that of Pharisees and other religious leaders of old and we know the condemnation that Christ pronounced on such. Perhaps you too......as much as you think I need to....should re-evaluate what you think you know. Perhaps you too should re-evaluate the posture of your heart...is it bent toward self righteousness, or toward humility? And if you did, perhaps you might be granted more response to your street preaching.

You know if I was what you claimed and accused me of I would not be reading a book on sin by Jerry Bridges. Besides that I did not get one scripture reference in your post, but nothing but a character attack on me. I am done reasoning with you for its impossible.

 

[Rippon]

You know if I was what you claimed and accused me of I would not be reading a book on sin by Jerry Bridges. Besides that I did not get one scripture reference in your post, but nothing but a character attack on me. I am done reasoning with you for its impossible.

Evan, quantumfaith was pretty much on target. Take it too heart.

On your other thread "A Compassionate Plea" the same assessment is made.

We're not trying to beat you up. But you need to listen to what we are saying --both Calvinists and nonCals --multiple individuals from both camps have been trying to get you to understand for quite a while now.

 

[evangelist6589]

Evan, quantumfaith was pretty much on target. Take it too heart.

On your other thread "A Compassionate Plea" the same assessment is made.

We're not trying to beat you up. But you need to listen to what we are saying --both Calvinists and nonCals --multiple individuals from both camps have been trying to get you to understand for quite a while now.

Some that is.

 

[quantumfaith]

You know if I was what you claimed and accused me of I would not be reading a book on sin by Jerry Bridges. Besides that I did not get one scripture reference in your post, but nothing but a character attack on me. I am done reasoning with you for its impossible.

I try hard ( and fail at times) to not "attack". My comments were honest, heart-felt observations. You and I have differing "brands" of our faith in Christ. Perhaps your "brand" does appeal and pierce the hearts of some, it does not appeal to me. Please know you do not have a "corner on the market" as to how to live out your faith. Neither do I. I am content, but always investigating and learning when I can. I share the personal goal etched into the fabric of the church I worship, that is, to seek (yes seek) to communicate the Gospel in such a way to reach and hopefully used by the Holy Spirit to produce fruit among legions of people in my community who for whatever reason have had little to no affiliation with the "church proper". I will gladly accept any moniker (real, imagined, derogatory or otherwise) in order to be an impactful force in the lives of the unchurched. You may continue to denigrate and critize, me, Andy and the "type" of church in which I worship, I will simply try to ignore such, in my mind such mis-guided commentary.

 

[ShagNappy]

This reminds me of an old joke about a young man who joined the Army. When asked how he was doing, the young man responded that he was doing very well — so well in fact that when they marched everyone was out of step except him...

 

[evangelist6589]

I try hard ( and fail at times) to not "attack". My comments were honest, heart-felt observations. You and I have differing "brands" of our faith in Christ. Perhaps your "brand" does appeal and pierce the hearts of some, it does not appeal to me. Please know you do not have a "corner on the market" as to how to live out your faith. Neither do I. I am content, but always investigating and learning when I can. I share the personal goal etched into the fabric of the church I worship, that is, to seek (yes seek) to communicate the Gospel in such a way to reach and hopefully used by the Holy Spirit to produce fruit among legions of people in my community who for whatever reason have had little to no affiliation with the "church proper". I will gladly accept any moniker (real, imagined, derogatory or otherwise) in order to be an impactful force in the lives of the unchurched. You may continue to denigrate and critize, me, Andy and the "type" of church in which I worship, I will simply try to ignore such, in my mind such mis-guided commentary.

I Pearce and appeal to not a single soul. God is the one whom grants faith and repentance. All I do is obey Him and evangelism glorifies him.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree, strictly speaking that is what the passage is about. But I believe it can have broader applications.

I'm just not sure it can be used in an exegetically proper way to justify the SS approach, though Ed Dobson also attempts it in the book I have. In missiology we use the passage for the process of contextualization in the society. However, contextualization is not about how we do church (as per SS) but about how we present the Gospel. For example, I've attempted in my Japanese tracts (not too successfully) to emphasize the character of the Japanese people so as to get them thinking about the Gospel. However, I've not tried to make our Sunday Service some kind of culturally Japanese experience. The truth is, however you do church here, it's "foreign" to the Japanese.

P&W = Praise and worship band.

Thanks. Yeah, I thought of this after I posted. It's a rare bird in Japan because most churches are so small, so it didn't come immediately to mind.