Ahtiests are without excuse.

[tulpje]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
I have eternal life in Christ. Unbelievers will certainly die.

Hmm....the Baptists around here tell us that unbelievers will go to Hell. So which is it? Are we going to Hell or are we dying?

Personally, I don't want to live forever. I believe in life before death, and I don't think of this life as a pitstop on the way to something greater.

On a side note, why do people strive to stay alive? Why do we avoid death at all costs? I would think that those of you who are "saved" would be eager to die so that you could go to be with God. And how is life a gift from God if the good part comes after death?</font>[/QUOTE]IT'S THE SAME THING!!!!!

 

[Brother Adam]

On a side note, why do people strive to stay alive? Why do we avoid death at all costs? I would think that those of you who are "saved" would be eager to die so that you could go to be with God. And how is life a gift from God if the good part comes after death?

Hey frogsmoocher,

I'm not eager to die, because there are still people here on this earth like you who have yet to recieve God's grace.

We Christians sure are interesting characters- I could go end it right now and be in heaven, yet I choose to stay here and do the work God has for me to do.

At one time we were in holy fellowship with God, but we choose to break that off, as you are choosing to continue to have it broken off. God still wants to fellwoship with us, and sacraficed his Son in order for us to even have that option avaliable to us.

Hope this helps explain some

UNP
Adam

 

[poikilotherm]

Originally posted by dogwood:

tulpje, you seem very bothered the presence of us atheists in this forum, so what I'm wondering is, why do you post here? I'm not questioning your right to do so, and I'm not trying to get rid of you, but this IS the Free For All Forums. It's the only place atheists can post on this site. However, you are not so restricted.

I know that as a Lutheran you can't post in the Baptist-Only forums, but that still leaves you eight other forums you can post in where you won't see hide nor hair of us. Why torture yourself?

I have been asking myself the same thing. tulpje, if you are posting to spread the word of G-d, I can assure you that all you are doing is convincing non-Christians (further) that Christianity (at least, your particular version of it) is a narrow and essentially repellant religion. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you must understand how you sound.

If you are posting to amuse yourself, then OK, I can have no objection, but you seem to be amused by declaring things "Blasphamous!" etc. so I can only say that your sense of amusement is.....odd. I guess it takes all types to make up this wold, but deliberate blasphemy is something I tend to avoid, rather than take pleasure in.

If you are posting to inform yourself, then I have to say that posting large amounts of scripture and watching people ask:"Now what on Earth prompted her to do that?" would seem an ineffective means of gathering information, as would telling other people what they beleive, rather than simply asking them.

I do not wish you to stop posting. You are a most effective argument against many strains of fundamentalist Christianity that I find personally distasteful (no, this does not include all Christianity, nor even much fundamentalist Christianity). I confess that the only reason I would want you to stop posting is that you re-enforce many of my personal prejudices: this however, I regard as my business, and not yours.

In brief, I cannot figure out what brings you here either. I look forward to your clarification.

 

[tulpje]

LOL

 

[tulpje]

For the wages of sin is death. but the gift of God is eternal life is Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23

The Bible says that if we chose Jesus it is light and life. If we chose sin it is darkness and death. So, hell is death whereas heaven is life. It is hard to understand because hell is the opposite of heaven. We are in eternal life but only we are having eternal punishment instead of eternal bliss, right? Well, the bible says it is death. It's hard to understand.

I'm sorry if I am not being much nore of a help. It's something that I just take for granted as a Christian not thinking that someone like you might struggle with an issue literal words that. No, I'm not 12.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:
[QB]

Hmm....the Baptists around here tell us that unbelievers will go to Hell. So which is it? Are we going to Hell or are we dying?

Personally, I don't want to live forever. [QB]

I think the New Testament makes it clear enough what happens when the unrighteous die on earth.

They are held in Hell until judgment day, one is not burning in hell fire while they wait, they haven't been judged yet. All of hell is not fire. This waiting area in Hell is similar to the Catholic purgatory, but certainly not with the same use as Catholics choose to interpret. One certainly would know what is coming in this waiting area and there must be much agony. On the day of judgment, they are then judged and some or all (not clear from the Bible) will be thrown into the eternal fire to have both body and soul destroyed.

(Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no eternal torture, there is eternal punishment (death), death of the soul and body is equivalent to not being aware as a person any longer and certainly not being with God, it is your destruction.

The Bible says that the "fire" or that mechanism that destroys soul and body is eternal and the only ones to exist forever in this fire is Satan,the beast and the false prophet. (Rev: 20) It was very clear that no other men where in this fire to burn forever.

[ March 09, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[tulpje]

Thanks post-it. I don't know everything. It is still all so confusing to me. God takes care of the righteous and the heathen here on earth. when we are in judgement, these who are judged are seperated from his glory and majesty. Can you imagine that? What agony? What hell? The things we have we have only because the Lord provides.

 

[DanielS25]

It is sometimes amazing how people will take the words of a book at face value without demanding greater evidence when it makes such extraordinary claims. I guess people will believe whatever makes them feel better.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by DanielS25:
It is sometimes amazing how people will take the words of a book at face value without demanding greater evidence when it makes such extraordinary claims. I guess people will believe whatever makes them feel better.

Most Christians have sufficient evidence to have faith in the Bible.
Therefore, you conclusion is fallacious.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:

Another fundamentalist Christian I know told me that God knows prior to one's birth whether or not that person will be a believer. Sounds logical, since God should know everything, right? So why doesn't God just prevent the non-believers from being born? Does God like to burn people?

Could it be logical to say that in order for God to give people the free-will choice to become believers, there must be some other outcome for those who don’t believe? (while you used the word burn, it should be “separated from God” (to die in body and soul) Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
This should be the correct outcome for those who do not want to live with God. God can only stop caring about people if they no longer exist, and it is their choice anyway.

You may thank God for providing you with the things you need on earth, but remember that God also provided Satan and Hell. God could very easily eliminate them, couldn't he? But he chooses not to, for whatever reason. Doesn't sound benevolent to me.

A benevolent being who also gave free choice and other factors to another being can still be benevolent and honor his agreement with the other person. Therefore, it is possible to have a Satan, a Hell, and be benevolent. Your conclusion is fallacious.

I don't subscribe to spiritual beliefs based on fear.

We don’t either, there is no fear of simply dying if you don’t choose God. You have already accepted it yourself. Do you fear death of your body? Neither do we. We just get an extra choice other than what you have accepted. While some may become Christian because they fear the consequences, it is not the majority, therefore your conclusion is fallacious.

[ March 10, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:

If God could :oof:: create the world, and :oof:: create Man out of dust, then why would he need fire to destroy our bodies and souls? Is he sadistic?

It doesn't have to be fire, it could be just a term for man to understand. Fire destroys things completely. It may not be "fire" that will be the soul destroyer, but it could be. The point is that it matters not what it is, what does matter is that the event of your body and soul being destroyed. You are getting hung up on words and not believing the concepts.

Yep.... Satan. The father of all evil whom God created and allows to continue existing. But God loves you. And if you don't love him back you will be destroyed.

Is it possible for God to have Created Satan originally as a good angel, but with free-choice? Could Satan have chosen the anti-God way and brought evil into existence? Could God still love humans?

Assuming that God could exist, the answer is yes and your argument is fallacious.

[ March 10, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[DanielS25]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DanielS25:
It is sometimes amazing how people will take the words of a book at face value without demanding greater evidence when it makes such extraordinary claims. I guess people will believe whatever makes them feel better.

Most Christians have sufficient evidence to have faith in the Bible.
Therefore, you conclusion is fallacious.</font>[/QUOTE]I grew up a christian and I live in a very christian place so the notion that christians have sufficient evidence depends on how you look at it. I remember sitting in church and having a youth minister ask us if someone asked what reason we have to believe would we have one and what would it be and guess what no one had a response. I spent a long time defending christianity from attacks, but when it comes right down to it, there is much less than sufficient evidence.
Where is the real evidence outside of the gospels that Jesus rose from the dead? I have read and read and searched and searched and there is yet to be presented sufficient evidence for such an extraordinary claim, because for one it cannot be treated as just a historical event, because it would impact how we live today in our own personal lives in a way that would be different than it would be if we were to try to determine if Martin Van Buren had really been President at one time. To just say well will judge it in the context of historical events is comparing apples to oranges.
Do most christians have sufficient evidence for their own beliefs? In their own eyes perhaps, but in reality rarely. Most christians I know couldn't give a reason in the whole earth why to believe that was logical and not based on emotion, because believe me, I've asked several and I was one for years.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by DanielS25:
I grew up a Christian ....but when it comes right down to it, there is much less than sufficient evidence.
...because believe me,.... I was one for years.[/QB]

So now your argument has come down to this:

Premise 1:
I was what you are now, a Christian.
Premise 2:
I couldn't find any reason for being a Christian.

Conclusion:
Therefore, you shouldn't either.

To accept your argument we have to believe that your understanding and logic is greater than our Theologians and Christian Scholars. Also, your argument is non sequitur, thus not logical. You just gave us a reason not to assume the rest of your logic was correct when you were a Christian.

Keep your mind open and it may click that Christianity is "just" as logical as atheism. Scary thought, but true.

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
I'm sorry if I am not being much nore of a help. It's something that I just take for granted as a Christian not thinking that someone like you might struggle with an issue literal words that.

Did you become a Christian using your own mind and reasonable conclusions, or were you indoctrinated since childhood? Just curious.

My experience is that most fundamentalist Christians were brought up with those beliefs and weren't ever allowed to think for themselves. Their version of freethought was "you have free will to make the choice, but remember that if you choose wrong you will burn in Hell."</font>[/QUOTE]No I wasn't actually. I wish I was. I would have had a much easier life. I would have made better choices.

I just joined the WELS 4 months ago. It was only a year before that that I became a Lutheran. Before that I was going to a Covenant Church which is far from fundamentalst. It's one of those "feel good" churches. I didn't go to church from the time I was about 12 to 28. When I did go to church as a child, I went with the neighbors. I was not raised in a Christian home. When I was about 16 I decided that I wanted to experiment with witchcraft. When I was in college, I hated God and didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God and thought that the bible was just a bunch of lies. I had a pretty good argument too... "How could the bible possibly be true?" I thought it was a lie. I was looking for God but never finding him... stumbling around in the darkness. Needing God... Wanting God but never finding him. Of course, I had never been baptized.

A terrible custody battle for my baby brought me to prayer... and finally back to church. I had an incredible faith in God because I saw his grace through my answered prayers, but my faith wasn't being fed in the covenant church so I left for the Lutheran Church where I was baptized. That was where I was saved. I am a totally different person today than I was before due to my baptism. It just so happened that the Lutheran church I chose was a liberal ELCA church with bad doctrine, so I left there 4 months ago and have finally found a good church home in the WELS.

Sooooo... I know how you think and what you feel. I was there once. That is the power that Satan has over our minds and our thoughts. He is a liar and the father of lies.

I have to say that between my experience in the occult and my course in college in WEstern Civ... I really learned a lot about the history Catholic Church and I had no faith. Thank God he saved me. I am a sinner and don't deserve this gift of salvation. Now I am a child of God and I walk in the light whereas I was walking in darkness before. Amen

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
I know how you think and what you feel. I was there once.

Well, just one more post.

No, I don't think you know what I think and feel. You seem to have had a troubled life and were looking for comfort, which you found in a supernatural being. I don't rely on such things for comfort. My strength and comfort come from the love and fellowship I have with other human beings.

I'm sorry that you think of yourself as a sinner who doesn't deserve good things. I find that very sad.

Toodles.

Tangie</font>[/QUOTE]We are all sinners born into sin. We don't deserve the gracious gift of life that our Father has given us. I think it's tragic that you think you can find salvation in your friends. What could be more lonely than that? Salvation is for all of us.. even you. And no. You don't deserve it. God is merciful.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by frogsmoocher:

Choosing the "anti-God" way would be considered evil, would it not? So that implies that evil existed prior to Satan's rising and that God, not Satan, was the provider of evil. Satan chose the evil path, which was already there for him to choose. How could Satan "choose" between good and bad if bad was non-existent?

For there to be a free choice there must be two choices. Whatever you want to name them is not the issue. The issue is that for free will to exist there must be choices.

If we were to treat our children as the Biblical God treats "His" children, we would lose our kids to social services and/or be imprisoned.

That is a generalization and is an untrue proposition.

I notice you like the word "fallacious."

I find it useful in arguing the weak and illogical arguments that most skeptics and atheists bring to the board. If they could only make logical sense, maybe we could give their arguments serious consideration. But I have yet to find any logical argument against the Existence of God or the Truth found in the Holy Bible. I'm waiting for that day, until then... I'm a God believing Christian!

I also understand you not wanting to continue posting here as it seems you have yet to post any argument that would logically result in the disbelief you profess. And I’m not saying you can’t, it is just that you haven’t yet. I hope you continue to try, it may be the only way you see the error the atheist movement has blind you with.

Yes, it “seems” they make logical sense, therefore Bifurcation Fallacy. They claim things are only black and white. Yes or No. Exists or Doesn’t Exists. Yes, I know Undistributed Middle, but once you look at the middle choice, you are back to Black or white, Yes or No.

They have arguments that are impressive, yet full of problems. We have arguments that are impressive, yet are full of problems. Why did you decide their problems were less of a problem than our problems?

 

[DanielS25]

I think you missed the point of what I was at the heart of what I was trying to say. Its not about logic games. I'm not into comparing myself to Aquainas or Augustine. I just simply ask the question why believe? Where is the evidence that the Resurrection ever occurred? There are plenty of much more intelligent men like Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins who don't believe in god so to throw up one great intellectual or another is pointless. You should never just believe what an intellectual has to say just because they are intelligent. You should make a critical examination of the facts presented.
I at one time believed in christ, I no longer do. My belief in Christ was based on the loose foundation of the Bible which amounts to quicksand when the Plumb line is measured against it. I'm not here to play games about whether god exists so much as I am to question the notion that Christ was raised from the dead. I loved god and believed with my heart that he was real till I became convinced that the evidence that I was basing his reality on just was not there and that I needed to make a better judgement of the facts. For some, a knee jerk reaction is to be expected I guess for anything that comes from a skeptic. I had some those same reactions in my previous life.

 

[DanielS25]

Post it says that he has yet to find any proof against the existence of god. Yet isn't the burden of proof on the believer who makes the extraordinary claim in the first place and doesn't that extraordinary claim require extraordinary proof especially when they are claims of a god and an after life, and resurrection of the dead?

 

[DanielS25]

One thing I've noticed about Post its responses is that they never seem to actually deal with the question raised, but rather in attacking the question itself. He would make a good politician.

[ March 12, 2002, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: DanielS25 ]

 

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Aawww, Tulpje, this made me feel so sad:

We are all sinners born into sin. We don't deserve the gracious gift of life that our Father has given us. I think it's tragic that you think you can find salvation in your friends. What could be more lonely than that? Salvation is for all of us.. even you. And no. You don't deserve it. God is merciful.

I know I cannot speak for frogsmoocher, but perhaps I can come close.
'We are all sinners born into sin' is such an evil doctrine.
No wonder the human race is locked into wars,plagues and self-doubt.
What would we be if we were allowed to develop ourselves, free of a belief that we were guilty from birth?
Ah, I know I speak to the deaf, Tulpje.
'My friends' don't enter into it.
Is it so hard to concieve of a person who has no need of that theorem to find the strenght and joy in life?
Perhaps, for you, it is.
I am so happy that I was saved from such a miserable existance.