Ahtiests are without excuse.

Hmm....the Baptists around here tell us that unbelievers will go to Hell. So which is it? Are we going to Hell or are we dying?

Personally, I don't want to live forever. I believe in life before death, and I don't think of this life as a pitstop on the way to something greater.

On a side note, why do people strive to stay alive? Why do we avoid death at all costs? I would think that those of you who are "saved" would be eager to die so that you could go to be with God. And how is life a gift from God if the good part comes after death?</font>[/QUOTE]IT'S THE SAME THING!!!!!

 

LOL

 

For the wages of sin is death. but the gift of God is eternal life is Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23

The Bible says that if we chose Jesus it is light and life. If we chose sin it is darkness and death. So, hell is death whereas heaven is life. It is hard to understand because hell is the opposite of heaven. We are in eternal life but only we are having eternal punishment instead of eternal bliss, right? Well, the bible says it is death. It's hard to understand.

I'm sorry if I am not being much nore of a help. It's something that I just take for granted as a Christian not thinking that someone like you might struggle with an issue literal words that. No, I'm not 12.

 

Thanks post-it. I don't know everything. It is still all so confusing to me. God takes care of the righteous and the heathen here on earth. when we are in judgement, these who are judged are seperated from his glory and majesty. Can you imagine that? What agony? What hell? The things we have we have only because the Lord provides.

 

It is sometimes amazing how people will take the words of a book at face value without demanding greater evidence when it makes such extraordinary claims. I guess people will believe whatever makes them feel better.

 

Most Christians have sufficient evidence to have faith in the Bible.
Therefore, you conclusion is fallacious.</font>[/QUOTE]I grew up a christian and I live in a very christian place so the notion that christians have sufficient evidence depends on how you look at it. I remember sitting in church and having a youth minister ask us if someone asked what reason we have to believe would we have one and what would it be and guess what no one had a response. I spent a long time defending christianity from attacks, but when it comes right down to it, there is much less than sufficient evidence.
Where is the real evidence outside of the gospels that Jesus rose from the dead? I have read and read and searched and searched and there is yet to be presented sufficient evidence for such an extraordinary claim, because for one it cannot be treated as just a historical event, because it would impact how we live today in our own personal lives in a way that would be different than it would be if we were to try to determine if Martin Van Buren had really been President at one time. To just say well will judge it in the context of historical events is comparing apples to oranges.
Do most christians have sufficient evidence for their own beliefs? In their own eyes perhaps, but in reality rarely. Most christians I know couldn't give a reason in the whole earth why to believe that was logical and not based on emotion, because believe me, I've asked several and I was one for years.

 

Did you become a Christian using your own mind and reasonable conclusions, or were you indoctrinated since childhood? Just curious.

My experience is that most fundamentalist Christians were brought up with those beliefs and weren't ever allowed to think for themselves. Their version of freethought was "you have free will to make the choice, but remember that if you choose wrong you will burn in Hell."</font>[/QUOTE]No I wasn't actually. I wish I was. I would have had a much easier life. I would have made better choices.

I just joined the WELS 4 months ago. It was only a year before that that I became a Lutheran. Before that I was going to a Covenant Church which is far from fundamentalst. It's one of those "feel good" churches. I didn't go to church from the time I was about 12 to 28. When I did go to church as a child, I went with the neighbors. I was not raised in a Christian home. When I was about 16 I decided that I wanted to experiment with witchcraft. When I was in college, I hated God and didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God and thought that the bible was just a bunch of lies. I had a pretty good argument too... "How could the bible possibly be true?" I thought it was a lie. I was looking for God but never finding him... stumbling around in the darkness. Needing God... Wanting God but never finding him. Of course, I had never been baptized.

A terrible custody battle for my baby brought me to prayer... and finally back to church. I had an incredible faith in God because I saw his grace through my answered prayers, but my faith wasn't being fed in the covenant church so I left for the Lutheran Church where I was baptized. That was where I was saved. I am a totally different person today than I was before due to my baptism. It just so happened that the Lutheran church I chose was a liberal ELCA church with bad doctrine, so I left there 4 months ago and have finally found a good church home in the WELS.

Sooooo... I know how you think and what you feel. I was there once. That is the power that Satan has over our minds and our thoughts. He is a liar and the father of lies.

I have to say that between my experience in the occult and my course in college in WEstern Civ... I really learned a lot about the history Catholic Church and I had no faith. Thank God he saved me. I am a sinner and don't deserve this gift of salvation. Now I am a child of God and I walk in the light whereas I was walking in darkness before. Amen

 

Well, just one more post.

No, I don't think you know what I think and feel. You seem to have had a troubled life and were looking for comfort, which you found in a supernatural being. I don't rely on such things for comfort. My strength and comfort come from the love and fellowship I have with other human beings.

I'm sorry that you think of yourself as a sinner who doesn't deserve good things. I find that very sad.

Toodles.

Tangie</font>[/QUOTE]We are all sinners born into sin. We don't deserve the gracious gift of life that our Father has given us. I think it's tragic that you think you can find salvation in your friends. What could be more lonely than that? Salvation is for all of us.. even you. And no. You don't deserve it. God is merciful.

 

I think you missed the point of what I was at the heart of what I was trying to say. Its not about logic games. I'm not into comparing myself to Aquainas or Augustine. I just simply ask the question why believe? Where is the evidence that the Resurrection ever occurred? There are plenty of much more intelligent men like Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins who don't believe in god so to throw up one great intellectual or another is pointless. You should never just believe what an intellectual has to say just because they are intelligent. You should make a critical examination of the facts presented.
I at one time believed in christ, I no longer do. My belief in Christ was based on the loose foundation of the Bible which amounts to quicksand when the Plumb line is measured against it. I'm not here to play games about whether god exists so much as I am to question the notion that Christ was raised from the dead. I loved god and believed with my heart that he was real till I became convinced that the evidence that I was basing his reality on just was not there and that I needed to make a better judgement of the facts. For some, a knee jerk reaction is to be expected I guess for anything that comes from a skeptic. I had some those same reactions in my previous life.

 

Post it says that he has yet to find any proof against the existence of god. Yet isn't the burden of proof on the believer who makes the extraordinary claim in the first place and doesn't that extraordinary claim require extraordinary proof especially when they are claims of a god and an after life, and resurrection of the dead?

 

One thing I've noticed about Post its responses is that they never seem to actually deal with the question raised, but rather in attacking the question itself. He would make a good politician.

[ March 12, 2002, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: DanielS25 ]

 

Aawww, Tulpje, this made me feel so sad:

I know I cannot speak for frogsmoocher, but perhaps I can come close.
'We are all sinners born into sin' is such an evil doctrine.
No wonder the human race is locked into wars,plagues and self-doubt.
What would we be if we were allowed to develop ourselves, free of a belief that we were guilty from birth?
Ah, I know I speak to the deaf, Tulpje.
'My friends' don't enter into it.
Is it so hard to concieve of a person who has no need of that theorem to find the strenght and joy in life?
Perhaps, for you, it is.
I am so happy that I was saved from such a miserable existance.