"aionios"

[TS_TS]

The literal translation is: "to the ages of the ages".

The same term applied to God differs in meaning when applied to others because of the situation and the nature of those involved. When applied to those in hell, it could mean an eternity, if those there refuse to repent and accept correction, based on using their free will. "Age-abiding correction", as is applied to those in hell, is intended by God to be a duration of limited time, for the purpose of correction and restoration. That is the will of God; those there can follow His will by repenting and being liberated from hell, or rebel and stay there as long as they continue to rebel. That's why Jesus went and "preached to the spirits in prison" after His death.

That is actually not the literal translation. That is like dividing up any other phrase and saying the meaning of the phrase is the sum of each of its parts. That is not how language works.

If God wanted to tell us something was truly eternal, what word do you say he would have used?

 

[atpollard]

The literal translation is: "to the ages of the ages".

The same term applied to God differs in meaning when applied to others because of the situation and the nature of those involved. When applied to those in hell, it could mean an eternity, if those there refuse to repent and accept correction, based on using their free will. "Age-abiding correction", as is applied to those in hell, is intended by God to be a duration of limited time, for the purpose of correction and restoration. That is the will of God; those there can follow His will by repenting and being liberated from hell, or rebel and stay there as long as they continue to rebel. That's why Jesus went and "preached to the spirits in prison" after His death.

As a former nihilist, I wonder ... how long do you think God would have had to torture me in Hell before the torment convinced me that he was not a hateful monster and I started to love Him?
(I am attempting to understand how you think this change of heart in Hell is going to come about.)

 

[Revmitchell]

What was the purpose of Jesus after His death going and preaching to the spirits in prison (hell)? Simply to declare Who He was? I don't think so.

You misunderstand scripture. That is not what it says.

 

[Rebel1]

That is actually not the literal translation. That is like dividing up any other phrase and saying the meaning of the phrase is the sum of each of its parts. That is not how language works.

If God wanted to tell us something was truly eternal, what word do you say he would have used?

Actually, it is the literal translation.

 

[Rebel1]

As a former nihilist, I wonder ... how long do you think God would have had to torture me in Hell before the torment convinced me that he was not a hateful monster and I started to love Him?
(I am attempting to understand how you think this change of heart in Hell is going to come about.)

A change of heart can come about in many different ways -- or not at all.

 

[Rebel1]

You misunderstand scripture. That is not what it says.

It says he went and preached to the spirits in prison. What is the purpose of preaching? What does it intend to accomplish?

 

[atpollard]

A change of heart can come about in many different ways -- or not at all.

In Hell?
How? (scripture if available)

The human heart:

• [Gen 6:5 NASB] 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
• [Gen 8:21 NASB] 21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
• [2Ch 12:14 NASB] 14 He did evil because he did not set his heart to seek the LORD.
• [Psa 101:4 NASB] 4 A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil.
• [Pro 6:14, 18 NASB] 14 Who [with] perversity in his heart continually devises evil, Who spreads strife. ... 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
• [Pro 12:20 NASB] 20 Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil, But counselors of peace have joy.
• [Jer 4:14, 18 NASB] 14 Wash your heart from evil, O Jerusalem, That you may be saved. How long will your wicked thoughts Lodge within you? ... 18 "Your ways and your deeds Have brought these things to you. This is your evil. How bitter! How it has touched your heart!"
• [Jer 7:24 NASB] 24 "Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in [their own] counsels [and] in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.
• [Jer 11:8 NASB] 8 'Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked, each one, in the stubbornness of his evil heart; therefore I brought on them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded [them] to do, but they did not.'"
• [Jer 16:12 NASB] 12 'You too have done evil, [even] more than your forefathers; for behold, you are each one walking according to the stubbornness of his own evil heart, without listening to Me.
• [Jer 18:12 NASB] 12 "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
• [Zec 8:17 NASB] 17 'Also let none of you devise evil in your heart against another, and do not love perjury; for all these are what I hate,' declares the LORD."
• [Mat 12:34 NASB] 34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
• [Mat 15:19 NASB] 19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
• [Mat 24:48 NASB] 48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
• [Mar 7:21 NASB] 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
• [Luk 6:45 NASB] 45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure] brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
• [Heb 3:12 NASB] 12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

The changed heart ...

• [Psa 4:7 NASB] 7 You have put gladness in my heart, More than when their grain and new wine abound.
• [Eze 11:19 NASB] 19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
• [Eze 36:26 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

... comes from GOD!

 

[atpollard]

"aionios"

So just for the record, since it hasn't been asked yet, what is wrong with Strong's and Thayer's?

Why does G166 not mean "eternal" or "forever"?

[G166]
STRONG'S DEFINITIONS

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).



THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON

αἰώνιος, -ον, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. [see below]; Diodorus 1:1; [cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23)]) -ος, -α, -ον, (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philemon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 [also, dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) 2:11]; similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρία, Hebrews 5:9; [so Mark 16 WH, in the (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'].
Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Matthew 25:46; κρίμα, Hebrews 6:2; κρίσις, Mark 3:29 (Rec. [but L T WH Tr text ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον, αἰώνιον (cf. Hebrews 9:12)]); ὄλεθρος [Lachmann text ὀλέθριος], 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Matthew 25:41 (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρὶ κ. βασάνοις, αἳ εἰς ὅλον τὸν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀνήσουσί σε).


[Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, which see, of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nora. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰ. fragment in Mang. 2:667 at the end (Richter 6:229 middle); cf. de praem, et poen. § 12. Other examples are de alleg, leg. iii., § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer, erud. § 19; de secular sec 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. book § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 10; ζωὴ αἰ.: de secular § 15; Θεός (ὁ) αἰ.: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (twice), § 20 (twice); de mundo § 2. from Josephus: Antiquities 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, I; κλέος αἰ. Antiquities 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5, μνήμη αἱ.: Antiquities 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μὲν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), Antiquities 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4.
SYNONYMS: ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδ. covers the complete philosophic idea — without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. Θεὸν δὲ τὸν μὲν αἰώνιον νόος ὁρῆ μόνος etc.; Plato, Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum at the passage); 38 b. c.; legg. x., p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δὲ ὄν γενόμενον, ἀλλ’ οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato's διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt, chapter 45.]


SCRIPTURE:

• [Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal[G166] fire.
• [Mat 19:16, 29 NASB] 16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal[G166] life?" ... 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal[G166] life.
• [Mat 25:41, 46 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal[G166] fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal[G166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal[G166] life."
• [Mar 3:29 NASB] 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal[G166] sin"--
• [Mar 10:17, 30 NASB] 17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal[G166] life?" ... 30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal[G166] life.
• [Luk 10:25 NASB] 25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal[G166] life?"
• [Luk 16:9 NASB] 9 "And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal[G166] dwellings.
• [Luk 18:18, 30 NASB] 18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal[G166] life?" ... 30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal[G166] life."
• [Jhn 3:15-16, 36 NASB] 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal[G166] life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal[G166] life. ... 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal[G166] life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
• [Jhn 4:14, 36 NASB] 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal[G166] life." ... 36 "Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal;[G166] so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
• [Jhn 5:24, 39 NASB] 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal[G166] life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. ... 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal[G166] life; it is these that testify about Me;
• [Jhn 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68 NASB] 27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal[G166] life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." ... 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal[G166] life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." ... 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal[G166] life. ... 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal[G166] life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ... 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal[G166] life.
• [Jhn 10:28 NASB] 28 and I give eternal[G166] life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
• [Jhn 12:25, 50 NASB] 25 "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.[G166] ... 50 "I know that His commandment is eternal[G166] life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
• [Jhn 17:2-3 NASB] 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal[G166] life. 3 "This is eternal[G166] life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
• [Act 13:46, 48 NASB] 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal[G166] life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. ... 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they [began] rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal[G166] life believed.
• [Rom 2:7 NASB] 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal[G166] life;
• [Rom 5:21 NASB] 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal[G166] life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
• [Rom 6:22-23 NASB] 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal[G166] life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal[G166] life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• [Rom 16:26 NASB] 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal[G166] God, has been made known to all the nations, [leading] to obedience of faith;

 

[TS_TS]

Additionally, I would still like to know what Greek word is proposed God was supposed to use if he really did want to tell us that something is eternal, in the never ending sense.

 

[John of Japan]

I thought the topic of enough importance to start a new thread.

In Matthew 25:46, the correct rendering of the verse is this: "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." Young's Literal translation has it thus: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." See this reference: Matthew 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

As a Bible translator and Greek teacher, how can I say this gently? That's a crock of baloney. (Sorry, I guess I couldn't say it gently.) Are you at all versed in semantics, "the study of meaning" in linguistics? Almost all words are polysemous--having more than one meaning. The meaning must be determined from the context most of the time. So, what in the context of Matt. 24:26 allows you (or Young) to translate "age-during"? To interpret the second use of aionion as not being everlasting means that the first usage must be that way also. So, is Heaven not everlasting, so that we can sin and get thrown out of Heaven? That would negate the blood of Jesus Christ.

Of all the translations listed there, Young's is the only honest and correct one.

Of all the translations out there, Young's is the one who shows the least knowledge of how language works. When I translated into Japanese with my friend "Uncle Miya," I would include Young's in the document for him to look at. He often was confused by it. Why?
1. Young often did not look at context in making his renderings.
2. Young often ignored the proper English syntax.
3. Young often translated by concordance (the same word always the same way).
4. Young often invented English words. "Age-during" is not an English word. Who knows what he actually meant by it. What if I say Young simply meant "eternal" or "everlasting" by "age-during." How would you refute me? You can't without simply inventing a meaning for his term.

 

[Rebel1]

As a Bible translator and Greek teacher, how can I say this gently? That's a crock of baloney. (Sorry, I guess I couldn't say it gently.) Are you at all versed in semantics, "the study of meaning" in linguistics? Almost all words are polysemous--having more than one meaning. The meaning must be determined from the context most of the time. So, what in the context of Matt. 24:26 allows you (or Young) to translate "age-during"? To interpret the second use of aionion as not being everlasting means that the first usage must be that way also. So, is Heaven not everlasting, so that we can sin and get thrown out of Heaven? That would negate the blood of Jesus Christ.

Of all the translations out there, Young's is the one who shows the least knowledge of how language works. When I translated into Japanese with my friend "Uncle Miya," I would include Young's in the document for him to look at. He often was confused by it. Why?
1. Young often did not look at context in making his renderings.
2. Young often ignored the proper English syntax.
3. Young often translated by concordance (the same word always the same way).
4. Young often invented English words. "Age-during" is not an English word. Who knows what he actually meant by it. What if I say Young simply meant "eternal" or "everlasting" by "age-during." How would you refute me? You can't without simply inventing a meaning for his term.

There is, after all, precedent for sinning and getting thrown out of heaven. If it had not happened to Satan, we wouldn't be in this mess we're in now.

 

[John of Japan]

There is, after all, precedent for sinning and getting thrown out of heaven. If it had not happened to Satan, we wouldn't be in this mess we're in now.

Is this your doctrine? That a human being, born again, made perfect by the blood of Christ Jesus, can sin and be thrown out of Heaven?? Really???

And again, what does "age-during" mean? Or even "age enduring" (your term)? Because I don't know. It's not really English. No one ever says it unless they are trying to prove that Hell isn't eternal, like you are. I can speculate that it means "enduring throughout an age." But how does that mean "not eternal"?