Alcohol - a social drug?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by genesis12:
Ask these what alcohol has done for them

All of your examples are of abuse. None are of permissible use.

If it isn't a necessary medicine, as in Helen's case, why drink it?

Because it tastes good.

What is there about alcohol that makes it "lovely" or "pleasant"?

The flavor and pallette of wine enhances the flavor of certain foods. Red wine with steak, white wine with chicken, etc.

Where did we get the idea that ALCOHOL is drinkable?

Where did we get the idea that it wasn't? I certainly cannot find any scripture that says alcoholic beverages are not drinkable. But I can find several examples of alcoholic beverages being consumed without sin.

Ah, but according to the Word of God simplying consuming alcohol is a sin. Look at Proverbs 23:31...

Look at the whole chapter of Proverbs 23. You'll see that the chapter is talking about abuse, not use. You're taking one verse, lifting it from the context, and making up your own false doctrine.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Shiloh:
That's easy, standingfirminChrist, They don't have those verses in their "bible". You can't reason with "christian?" drinkers for the Bible tells us they are not wise, Prov.20:1.

That's funny. A KJVOist claiming that some Christians are "not wise". Proverbs 20:1 referrs to those led astray by wine. It does not refer to anyone who consumes wine. So saith the KJV. Typical single-translationionist arrogance.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

7200. ra'ah
Search for H7200 in KJVSL
har ra'ah raw-aw'

a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

Whether I am using one verse or not, the word 'look' in the thirty-first verse still means the same.

Let's look at these words...

Consider not
Discern not
Enjoy not
Have experience not
Gaze not

The list goes on.

It is plain, if you take even one drink of alcohol, you are experiencing it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If one stealing just a paperclip makes one a thief, and telling just one lie makes one a liar, how can you be sure that taking just one drink does not make one an drunkard?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If one stealing just a paperclip makes one a thief, and telling just one lie makes one a liar, how can you be sure that taking just one drink does not make one an drunkard?

Because stealing equalss a thief, and lying equals a liar. But drinking does not equal a drunk. Abuse of drinking equals a drunk.

I'm a bit at a loss why you lack discernment between consumption and abuse. I consume alcohol on occaision, and have not been drunk in over 20 years.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
It is plain, if you take even one drink of alcohol, you are experiencing it.

That plainness disappears when you read the chapter as a whole, and discover that scripture is addressing an abuse, not simple use.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You say you have been consuming alcohol for years and have not been drunk. God's Word says man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes. His ways are not our ways. You may think one drink does not constitute a drunk, but ya gotta wonder why the writer wrote 'don't even have experience with fermented drink'. It's there for a purpose. Says nothing of drunkness there, just have no experience with it.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
You say you have been consuming alcohol for years and have not been drunk.

That's correct. I avoid drunkenness as a rule.

God's Word says man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes. His ways are not our ways.

That appears to not apply to you somehow.

You may think one drink does not constitute a drunk, but ya gotta wonder why the writer wrote 'don't even have experience with fermented drink'. It's there for a purpose. Says nothing of drunkness there, just have no experience with it.

Again, that's not what the verse is saying. Read the chapter as a whole. You'll see it's addressing potential abuse, not simple consumption. I fail to see why you're refusing to see the chapter as a whole. Oh wait, if you do that, you won't have a leg to stand on. OK, it makes sense that you'll ignore the proper scripture context.

You'll also ignore the numerous scriptural verses that praise wine, includine Jesus making wine at the wedding feast, as well as him sharing wine at the Last Supper with his followers.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Was waiting for you to bring up Jesus making wine.

That wine was in no way fermented. Jesus would not have gone against God's Word.

Let's look at the wedding feast...

The governor had the wits to know what Jesus produced was the best wine, yet the men had already well drunk. If they had already well drunk, their senses would have been dulled and the governor would not have been able to tell it was the best wine. The wine at that feast was not alcoholic at all.

What Jesus produced was a non alcoholic wine.

And as to the Last Supper, nowhere in scripture does it say that was wine. It refers to it as the fruit of the vine.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
That wine was in no way fermented. Jesus would not have gone against God's Word.

Since you have failed to point to scripture that forbids simple consumption of alcoholic beverages, your implication that the wine of Jesus' first miracle was devoid of alcohol. Further, the account itself attests to the fact that the wine Jesus made was the best wine. Simple grape juice was not considered to be the best wine. On the contrary, it was considered to be cheap.

Now, let's look at how often scripture praises wine:

Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine. Gen. 27:28

Go eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do Ecl. 9:7

In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. Isa. 27:2

...your kisses are like the best wine that goes down smoothly, gliding over lips and teeth Song of S. 7:9

...and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof... Amos 9:14

And in Deuteronomy 14, it doesn't get any clearer that this:

Go to the place which the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire. Oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves, and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice.

 

[genesis12]

No fundy there!

 

[dcorbett]

My Pastor says that the wine was not fermented
back during Biblical days at all. I wonder if anyone else has heard that.

I love margaritas. I wish someone would create
a non-alcoholic margarita that tastes like a real one. I would start drinking them instead. I cannot imagine Mexican food without a margarita.
I don't get drunk. I have one margarita. And yes, I am free from the Old Testament covenants.
I don't feel that I sin when I drink one margarita. My sin is between me and God, noone else. Especially not judgemental self-righteous legalists.

 

[Shiloh]

"I don't feel that I sin when I drink one margarita. My sin is between me and God" A good example of what the Bible is talking about in Prov.20:1! I have been in the ministry for many years. I have NEVER seen a person that took an occasional drink of alcohol EVER do anything good for the Lord. You ask the pastors on this board if they would consider a drinker as a deacon. Ask them if they would rely on a drinker to go with them on their next "church problem" visit. Why? Drinking alcohol is a sin! You show me a man or woman who drinks and calls themselves a christian and I'll show you a family with messed up kids!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Shiloh:
I have been in the ministry for many years.

Good for you, although I’m not sure what it has to do with this discussion…

I have NEVER seen a person that took an occasional drink of alcohol EVER do anything good for the Lord.

You need to get out more.

Seriously.

I’ve seen numerous examples of those whose lifestyles were models of moderation and have served God selflessly in both vocational and non-vocational ministries.

Your lack of experience in this area does not strengthen your assertions.

You ask the pastors on this board if they would consider a drinker as a deacon.

“A drinker”??? That kind of label suggests that the person who consumes alcohol consumes it in such a way that it has become their identity. That's obviously drunkeness.

I know that it would not be a concern to have a deacon who is "not addicted to much wine" in my church or in several of which I have been a member.

Ask them if they would rely on a drinker to go with them on their next "church problem" visit.

You might be surprised…

Drinking alcohol is a sin!

Saying it over and over does not make it true.

You have not even come close to establishing that assumption with scripture. Other in this thread have presented scripture that contradicts your viewpoint. Furthermore, Jesus himself drank wine and even created it for the wedding guest in Cana, so you need to give up using the Bible as a resource for your extra-biblical opinion.

You show me a man or woman who drinks and calls themselves a christian and I'll show you a family with messed up kids!

I have known many families who have a mother or father who drank responsibly and moderately who have a wonderful family life. By far, the most damaged families I have encountered have been families led by hyper-legalist parents who have forced unbiblical opinions on their children and declared it to be the gospel.

I’ll stand with Jesus on this issue – the One who ate food and was falsely accused of being a “glutton” and drank wine and was falsely accused of being a “drunkard/winebibber”.

 

[Baptist Believer]

[please delete]

 

[webdog]

That wine was in no way fermented. Jesus would not have gone against God's Word

You are correct in that Jesus would not have gone against God's Word...Jesus made the best wine possible. God's Word tells us in Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine , of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined .

 

[Shiloh]

On another post is an example of just what I am talking about, "Chaplain of Bourbon Street". Check out this fellow!

 

[Helen]

Shiloh, you say you have never seen anyone who took an occasional drink do anything good for the Lord. That can only mean that those of us who take occasional drinks do things that you say by definition are not good for the Lord. OK, I'm definitely opposed to boasting, but here is some of what I have done in my life. Please tell me if there is anything good for the Lord in it, OK?

1. Adopted 5 special case kids
2. Fostered at least 50
3. Allowed a number of families who could not pay to stay in the private Christian school I administered.
4. Led, signing, a deaf woman's Bible fellowship and study for several years
5. Been a deaf interpreter in church
6. Done rescue work with horses, dogs, and some other animals
7. In the course of moderating several evolution/discussion forums at different times have received emails thanking me for either leading them back to Christ, helping them see the truth of the Bible, or helping them become Christians in the first place.


God has used me in other ways, for which I am profoundly grateful to Him. And I want to say here and now that I not only take wine for medicinal purposes when needed, but I also have an occasional glass of wine with dinner.

Now, either everything I have done is not good or you are wrong.

 

[Shiloh]

Helen, Would you be the exception to the rule? The first thing God gave us is our family. I'm sure that with all your good things you have done you have a exemplarity family..... The next time you have your glass of wine, think about your children.

 

[Linda64]

I was married to a drunk for almost 20 years--until he killed himself with the booze. He would have never become a drunk had he not gotten into his father's liquor cabinet at the age of 8, when he took his first drink of Brandy. He was in bondage to alcohol for 49 years. He died of acute ethanol toxicity at the age of 57 in 2000.

God says in His Holy Word

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (Proverbs 23:31)

Alcohol is a drug--a very dangerous depressant drug--and it is toxic. My advice to someone who is struggling with a drinking problem--take it to the Lord Jesus Christ and He will be your Refuge and your Strength (Ps. 46:1)