alcohol and the Christian

I am sorry to see that no one mentioned or commented on the article in the link that I provided. I guess people's personal feelings on this subject carry more weight than a biblically-based response. If you're interested, here's the link again.

The Christian and alcoholic beverages

 

Without stating my position on whether moderate drinking is permissable or not, I simply wanted to add that I am counseling with a new believer who employs similar arguments for his longtime struggle with marijuana....it is a natural grown weed, when smoked in moderation it simply generates happiness, if used as intended it is not harmful, etc.

 

Without stating my position on whether moderate drinking is permissable or not, I simply wanted to add that I am counseling with a new believer who employs similar arguments for his longtime struggle with marijuana....it is a natural grown weed, when smoked in moderation it simply generates happiness, if used as intended it is not harmful, etc.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course you don't have a New Testament example for use of marijuana and it is also illegal for use for the most the population of the Western World.

 

Nor do I have a biblical basis for taking Advil.

What if marijuana were made legal or what if I am in another country where it is not illegal?

 

Mike, you've got to remember that there are two or three dozen threads on this issue and pretty much every thing that can be said, has been.

We've seen all the arguments and all of the links, but the bottom line is that the Bible condemns excess, not moderation.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I didn't comment on it was that it seems to be a well-reasoned and researched piece. It stands on its own merit.

Thanks for the link.

 

Mike McK - I agree that there have been a number of threads on this subject but, sorry to say, I see few responses that are based on scripture. The link I provided looks at the issue from a purely biblical standpoint.

I also agree that the Bible condemns drunkeness, not drinking in moderation.

Take care

 

SBCbyGRACE said:

. . . I am counseling with a new believer who employs similar arguments for his longtime struggle with marijuana . . .

I assume you disagree? The illegitimate use of a similar argument for marijuana does not invalidate the argument which, applied to wine, is legitimate and Biblical.

 

Rest assured, I did visit the link. It seemed well written and researched, and seems to support my personal view (that moderation is biblically acceptible). But since I've previously looked at scripture on the subject, I can't say I'm surprised. BTW - although I support biblical acceptance of moderation, I almost never consume alcoholic beverages. But like I've said earlier, just 'cause I don't like shrimp, that doesn't make shrimp evil. I do, however, disagree with the site's contention that it may be wrong for believers to substitute communion wine with grape juice.

[ January 23, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Nor do I have a biblical basis for taking Advil. </font>[/QUOTE]You are correct. But that only reinforces the argument that the moderate use of alcohol is something that has a biblical basis.

I haven’t given it much thought. As far as I know, there are no health benefits associated with smoking anything. As far as ingesting marijuana goes, the effect is to intoxicate. A person who is drinking in moderation should not be seeking intoxication.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that Christians should drink to intoxication. For those who claim that even a drop of alcohol intoxicates, let me point you back to the drug sold as “Advil”. One or two tablets does not intoxicate, but instead provides health and comfort benefits. Ten or twenty tablets (an overdose – that is, a “toxic” does) does harm to your health. An even higher dosage may end your life.

Christians are not to overdose on alcohol (that is, consume alcohol to “toxic” levels – become “intoxicated”).

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

I quoted the information you gave,and commented on what you said,, so you are the one who said it not me.
If my dostor told me to drink alchol, I'd get a better doctor.

This toopic is alchol. Not pizza, wnat to discuss pizza start a new topic.

If someone had witnessed to me as an unbeliever I'd have laughed in thier face, I've seen the effects of alchol too many times, and at that point I would have seen no reason to ever bother listening to a christian again.

 

As for alcohol and health, moderation is the key. Moderate consumption of alcohol (1-2 servings per day for male and 0.5-1 servings per day for female) has been shown in some studies to be associated with improved cardiovascular health (note, of course that association is not the same as causation). Evidence suggests that in moderation for good segment of the population it can be a (small) part of a healthy lifestyle.

Of course, alcohol, like any substance that can be ingested, has toxic effects that are usually related to the amount consumed or to a pre-existing condition (such as certain liver diseases).

I believe that this is an area where we are called as Christians to seek in prayer what God would have us do and then act accordingly. Personally I am not against adults using alcohol in moderation. I am against consuming alcohol in situations such as driving where it is dangerous to self and others. I am against women consuming alcohol in pregnancy since it can cause fetal alcohol syndrome. I am not necessarily against but I would strongly advise against consumption of alcohol in individuals with a strong family history of alcohol or other addictions or have suffered from other addictions in the past.

As for alcoholism being genetic, it is likely that the disease is multifactorial. For some genes may play a larger role where for others environmental factos may dominate.

As for myself, I drink occasionally in moderation. I don't drink very frequently because I currently take medicine and don't want to work my liver too hard and also because I'm very picky about what I like to drink (I hate beer but love a nice merlot or a good margarita from my favorite Mexican restaurant).

In terms of being a good witness to others, I think my behavior while consuming alcohol is more important than just the act of consuming it. I know my limits, don't get drunk, and don't do things that I wouldn't do without having consumed alcohol.

Edited to add that I visited the link provided above and found it an interesting read. One point that I disagree with is that I don't see anything wrong with a church offering both grape juice and wine. I also see nothing wrong with an individual not taking the wine during communion if they are so moved.

[ January 23, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Madelyn Hope ]

 

I quoted the information you gave,and commented on what you said,, so you are the one who said it not me. </font>[/QUOTE]You are the one who placed unusual emphasis on the words “he thinks”, thereby trying to draw a conclusion that would support your position. I merely pointed out that you seem to know the intent of my doctor without having enough information to try to reinterpret his words for me.

That is certainly your choice. Of course, there is growing medical evidence that support the point of view he expressed, so you may not have many options in a few years.

This toopic is alchol. Not pizza, wnat to discuss pizza start a new topic. </font>[/QUOTE]It is exactly the same principle if you care to see it.

But I doubt you’ve recognized the results of moderate drinking. You seem to be reacting to drinking in excess which is not the case here.

Certainly. But legalists will always find excuses not to respond to the gospel. If you used the issue of drinking in moderation as your guide to spiritual things, you would have rejected Jesus Himself when He walked this earth.

How can you hold your brothers and sisters accountable for those who would reject Jesus Himself?

 

Hey BrianT, are you reading this thread?

This toopic is alchol. Not pizza, wnat to discuss pizza start a new topic.

Some topics really seem to shut off the brain's capacity to reason analogically, don't they?

 

I don't drink. The Bible has warnings about alcohol consumption. I have never heard of anyone who started drinking because they studied the health benefits of drinking in moderation and said, "Oh, this would be healthy for me, so I will drink a little." It is a scam excuse for people whio want to consume alcoholic beverages. If I am stuck in the Arabian desert for three days (without any thing else to drink) and someone offers me a Bud, I am drinking it without blinking and without feeling the least bit guilty. But, I am not stuck there, I am not in need of a cool one. Living on the edge of what might possibly be acceptable in some circumstance is not the goal of Christianity. What can I get by with? What can I do if I can find a clever little rationalization and twist of scripture. Does this sound like following Christ to you?
If I lived in a country where there was no other choice but to drink an alcoholic beverage or die, I'm guessing I would choose drinking. There is no sin inside that bottle, but the "Why" inside of you could contain a lot. Avoiding a problem that is no problem to avoid should be a no brainer for a Christian. Those of you who think drinking in moderation is OK, I would like to ask you a question. Are you really good at picking out which people have a predisposition to alcoholism. If 1000 people start drinking because you have reassured them that it is OK in moderation biblically and then about 100 of them become alcoholics, are you going to fix this? Have you watched you father have a heart attack while carrying your drunk uncle into his house. I have. Equating alcoholism with drinking soda or coffee is ridiculous. It is like equating murder with jaywalking. It may make you feel "reasonable" and politically correct, but, it isn't clearifing the truth. Avoid alcohol = no problem. Don't avoid alcohol = small % no problem, large % big problem.

[ January 23, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Artimaeus ]

 

Artimaeus said:

Living on the edge of what might possibly be acceptable in some circumstance is not the goal of Christianity.

Who says the moderate use of alcohol is "living on the edge"?

Drinking wasn't an issue for the Church for the first 1800 years of Christian history; it's only with the rise of the social gospel in recent centuries that the word "temperance" was hijacked to mean "abstinence."

[ January 23, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

Obviously I disagree. My point is that similar arguments for "moderation" of a potentially intoxicating product could be used in other arenas (such as marijuana).

 

And my point is that you cannot denounce the moderate use of a potentially mind-altering substance simply because it has no biblical basis. Other arguments must be considered.

Some scientific evidence would disagree with you. That is why there is the whole "legalize marijuana for medicial purposes only" debate to begin with.

I know some marijuana users (or at least former potheads) who again would disagree. Some simply smoke it to help them "relax" and do not smoke it to the point of being stoned.

And again we ask, is it okay for Christians to partake in other substances as long as they do not become "intoxicated"?

It is not. Again, I have not provided my own personal view on the moderate consumption of alcohol. My whole point is that similar arguments can be made of other potentially intoxicating products.

 

Look at scripture Provers 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and WHOSOEVER is decieved thereby is not wise.
Jeanne

 

Living by Faith said:

Look at scripture Provers 20:1

Look at Scripture:

Look at Scripture:

Those of us who believe the Bible approves of moderate drinking can reconcile Prov. 20:1 with our views. Can you reconcile the above with yours?