alcohol and the Christian

In the bible when refering to wine it can be stong drink or a type of grape juice. Like today a non- alchol drink or a alchol drink. I wont have it in my house but I don't go into others home and belittle them for having it. People have always respected my right not to drink. The people I witness to work are lost and the lost in general if asked "what's your idea of a Christian ?" regurarly reply to me "Someone who doesn't drink, swear, gamble, steal." I personally hold on to my testamony, I pray daily "Lord let me not sin against you, or fall in some way that another by My actions I place a stumbing block before them that leads them away from you" Because alchol has the power to be evil
by alcholism,a person driving drunk and killing a person or whole families I stay away from it,
1Thess 5:17 Abstain from all Appearance of evil.
In song and reading I make a joyful heart.
Jeanne

 

It is clear in Prov. that God does not approve of drinking. We take the Bible at face value when is says "Ye must be born again." Why is it that we as Christians think that we can pick the principles we want to live and believe out of the Bible, and disregard the rest?

 

Sripture discouraging strong drink
Isaiah 5:11,Proverbs 20:1,Proverbs 23:20,21
It even got Noah into trouble after a 120 years of having a good testamony in Genesis 9:20-23
Habakkuk 2:15 , Proverbs 23:29-30 Isaaih 5:12-14 says that winedoesn't regard the work of the Lord,
Isaiah 28:7 , and are Lord refused it in Mark 15:23
Also as a side note alcoholic needs 3 exact proportions of sugar,water and Yeast. Yeast was also used as a symbol of SIN. The Lord never contradicts his word He can not lie. So He uses wine as grape juice and STRONG WINE when he applies mean to alcohol. Again I say drink if you want I shall not have a part in it.
Jeanne

 

Are any of these threads different from any others?

And what's the point? Jesus drank wine. That's all you need to know to settle the issue.

I have a few questions for the folks who think it hurts Christian witness. Did Jesus do the wrong thing by drinking? Should He have "improved" His witness by not doing it? One person said not drinking sets Christians apart. Suppose you were in a Muslim country. Would you start drinking? Or would you suddenly flip and say we need to act like the unbelievers for the sake of our witness?

Living by Faith said: "The people I witness to work are lost and the lost in general if asked
'what's your idea of a Christian ' regurarly reply to me 'Someone who doesn't drink, swear, gamble, steal.'" Didn't you correct them? Didn't you tell them about grace, about Christ's sacrifice?

Artimaeus:

I have never heard of anyone who started drinking because they studied the health benefits of drinking in moderation and said, "Oh, this would be healthy for me, so I will drink a little."

That doesn't mean they don't exist.

It is a scam excuse for people whio want to consume alcoholic beverages.

Does being deliberately obtuse in defence of an un- if not anti- Christian belief help or hurt your Christian witness?

If I am stuck in the Arabian desert for three days (without any thing else to drink) and someone offers me a Bud, I am drinking it without blinking and without feeling the least bit guilty.

Ah, but that won't happen, because alcohol is illegal in Saudi Arabia. That's because it's against Islam.

Jesus made wine.

Mohammed forbid it.

Avoid alcohol = no problem. Don't avoid alcohol = small % no problem, large % big problem.

That's just not true. Among groups that forbid alcohol, the typical pattern is mostly teetotalers and a largish minority of problem drinkers. That would be the "avoid alcohol". But churches that preach moderation don't have nearly as many problem drinkers. Even among irreligious people, the notion that the larger proportion is problem drinkers is disconnected from the reality.

SBCbyGrace:

Okay, I'll stir things up: the pot smoker is right.

 

Living by Faith;

Also as a side note alcoholic needs 3 exact proportions of sugar,water and Yeast. Yeast was also used as a symbol of SIN. The Lord never contradicts his word He can not lie. So He uses wine as grape juice and STRONG WINE when he applies mean to alcohol.

Grape juice, and all fruit juice, naturally contains yeast. Fermentation kills the yeast the same way putting a plastic bag tight over someone's head would kill him. Yeast uses up suger and produces alcohol the way a person uses up oxygen and produces carbon dioxide.

And yes, wine does in fact mean just that.

 

If it is OK to drink wine, does not the Bible contradict it's self? There are two meanings for the word wine; strong drink and grape juice. In Prov. 20:1 it says if you drink strong drink you are not wise. In Prov. 23:31-35 it says not to look at it much less drink it!! If these spots in the Bible are against dinking wine, logic would say that the "wine" Jesus drank would have to grape juice. Thanks

 

drklaus;

There are two meanings for the word wine; strong drink and grape juice.

No there aren't. Wine means wine. The Greek word for wine means wine. The Hebrew word for wine means wine. When it says wine, it really does mean wine.

In Prov. 20:1 it says if you drink strong drink you are not wise.

No it doesn't.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

You can allege that everyone who lets a drop touch his lips is deceived, but the text doesn't say that, does it?

In Prov. 23:31-35 it says not to look at it much less drink it!!

No, it says not to look at it when it's tempting to drink too much. Context.

If these spots in the Bible are against dinking wine, logic would say that the "wine" Jesus drank would have to grape juice.

Perhaps relying on logic too much is your problem. It says He drank wine, and I believe it.

Matthew 11:19. Do you suppose the Pharisees went around saying, "That Guy drinks grape juice!"

 

drklaus said:

It is clear in Prov. that God does not approve of drinking.

Proverbs is not the whole Bible, and it is not clear that the whole counsel of God is wholly against all consumption of alcohol whatever.

We take the Bible at face value when is says "Ye must be born again." Why is it that we as Christians think that we can pick the principles we want to live and believe out of the Bible, and disregard the rest?

I could ask the same question of those who fail to take the Bible at face value when it commends wine. (Why do they redefine "wine" to something else?)

 

Jeanne:

Could you please back that up with Scripture?

Thanks
Michael</font>[/QUOTE]I will back it up Michael!

I am citing parts of Chapter 2 in the book mentioned below. I have enclosed the URL in case you would like to read more. This certainly does away with the " one wine theory ".

"WINE IN THE BIBLE: A BIBLICAL STUDY ON THE USE OF
ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES"

THE MEANING OF “WINE”
Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/2.html

Everybody knows that wine is the fermented juice of grapes! Such a surprise is understandable because most of today’s English dictionaries define"wine" as "fermented grape juice" or "the fermented juice of grapes," making no allowance
for unfermented grape juice to be called "wine."
The universally accepted definition of "wine" as "fermented grape juice" may well explain why many Bible believing Christians have come to believe that the "wine" mentioned in the Bible must in all instances be alcoholic.

This assumption, known as the "one wine theory," has greatly prejudiced the study of the Biblical
teachings on the use of alcoholic beverages by leading many sincere Christians to believe that God approves the moderate use of fermented, intoxicating wine.

The reasoning can best be illustrated syllogistically, as follows:

1. The Bible, like today’s English language, knows only of alcoholic wine.
2. Wine is praised in the Bible as a gracious divine blessing.
3. Therefore, the Bible approves the moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages.

The problem with this syllogism is that its first premise is VERY WRONG . As this
chapter will show, the Bible knows of two distinctly different grape beverages: the
first, unfermented, refreshing and lawful; the second, fermented, intoxicating and
unlawful.

This view of two kinds of wines in the Bible is flatly denied by numerous scholars. Dunlop Moore states emphatically: "The theory of two kinds of
wine—the one fermented and intoxicating and unlawful, and the other unfermented, unintoxicating, and lawful—is a modern hypothesis, devised during the present century, and has no foundation in the Bible, or in Hebrew or classical antiquity."1 An even stronger denial of the two wines theory is found in E. W.
Bullinger’s The Companion Bible, which says: "The modern expression, ‘unfermented wine,’ is a contradiction of terms. If it is wine, it must be fermented. If it is not fermented, it is not wine, but a syrup."2

CONCLUSION . The investigation into the secular usage of the related words—wine, vinum, oinos and yayin—has clearly shown that these words have been historically used in their respective languages to designate the pressed
juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This means that those who boldly claim that "the two wines view" is devoid of Biblical and historical support, 'base their claim on their ignorance of the parallel secular usage of the related words for wine in English, Latin, Greek and Hebrew'.

Hope that helps clear this up for ya'll

Sue

 

Actually, it didn't really. You didn't employ one single scripture in demonstrating that wine is different then grape juice in the context of scripture.

Thanks
Michael[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Michael: That's why I included the URL. I don't think the webmaster would have taken kindly to my posting the whole nine chapters of the book. There are plenty of scripture references if you'd care to look.

Sue

 

If we shouldn't drink, then go through your meds and throw out any cough syrups because most of them contain a good portion of alcohol in them. I personlly drink, see nothing wrong with it, but if around another Christian who believes differently I won't drink in front of them. I find nothing wrong with it and certainly do not feel it's conforming to the world or giving the world a bad impression.

karen

 

Actually Karen; In my last post I was replying to Michael's statement about wine being wine in the Bible. He is going on the "one wine theory". I just wanted to give him proof of the "two wine theory". You have to take the word 'wine' in the Bible in the context in which it was used. If you can't understand the context, then you can go back to the original Greek, Hebrew and Latin root words to see what the word 'wine' means in any given scripture.


Sue

 

A.J.Armitage,
First of, you had an excellent point that it says in Prov. 20:1 whosoever is deceived there is not wise. You still must look at the first half of the verse. In Prov. 23 you also had another excellent point. I don't know of to many people that start of drinking intending to be a drunk. How much wine does it take to make you a drunk? When you talk to a drunk he will ask for more saying he is under control. About Matt. 11:19, look at the context. The Pharisees were lying about Him. Jesus was not a gluttonous drunk!?
Thanx

 

This is an excellent book, and it covers in great detail the points raised in this thread. I recommend it to those interested in the wine debate:

http://www.godgavewine.com

 

Ransom,
You are right that Prov. is not the whole Bible, but what it says in Prov. can't go against what it says in the rest of scripture. That is why we must look at the whole Bible.

Ransom said:
I could ask the same question of those who fail to take the Bible at face value when it commends wine. (Why do they redefine "wine" to something else?)

Good point, but how can it condem and commend the same thing?