alcohol and the Christian

rufus said:

Somebody's Christian liberty JUST caused a brother to stumble (Rom. 14).

Oh, so now we can't talk about what the Bible says about certain subjects, just in case someone is watching?

What is this, Christian political correctness?

If you are referring to JIMNSC, it should be pointed out that he took offense and left in a huff. Somehow I doubt that he was offended, i.e. caused to go and sin against his conscience.

 

I have`nt read in the paper latly where someone bellyed up to the bar and drank 6 Dew`s left and had a head on collision and killed someone. I was`nt aware that we could sin in moderation, yo`al just keep right on tryin` and you will talk youselves into believing that what ever you are dealing with in your life is ok with God. You just come to the board and you will find someone here to give you just enough to make you comfortable in your sin. Not me brother dont drink abstain from all opperance of evil.

 

Yep, but too many people use cell phones in traffic and kill people. Should we outlaw cell phones or pass laws for the responsible use of cell phones?

In spite of your rhetoric, it is not a sin to drink in moderation. The Bible is very clear by word and example that this is true.

Actually, I think some of us are making the legalists uncomfortable. We point out what the Bible teaches and some folks don't like it because it interferes with their beliefs.

Yeah, too bad Jesus didn't do that... He gave the Pharisees an opportunity to call Him a sinner.

If you condemn drinking in moderation, remember that you must also stand in judgment of Christ, Who made wine in Cana for a wedding celebration and was a moderate wine drinker by example.

 

http://chetday.com/alcoholandthebible.htm

I think some good points about "weaker brothers" and what is "causing a brother to fall." Is "causing" someone to have a drink causing them to stumble? It isn't, unless they think alcohol consumption is sinful, which I would say is a false conclusion anyway.

I find it simultaneously amusing and insulting that so many people in this discussion would accuse some of us of "justifying" sin. That accusation comes up often in such discussions, in which one group thinks an act is definitely a sin and the other thinks it definitely is not (and here I'm speaking of the act of moderate drinking, not of getting drunk, which I think we all agree is a sin). Since there is no possible way for the latter group to be right, we simply must be justifying sin, when that isn't the case at all.

And then we get the "well, if you don't need it, then don't drink it for a month or two, just as a test" (we get this one with music too). But what's the point in that? If we enjoy it, and it isn't sinful, and we are responsible about it, why should we stop? To please the legalism gods? That's nonsense, and there's no way to "win" it. If we take the challenge and dont drik for a period of weeks or months, then we'll inevitably be asked, "if you can go without it for that long, why not go without completely," and based on past experience, if we say, "well, I didn't for X time, and that was fine, but now I'd like a glass of wine," then it's been "proved" that we just can't go without. Similarly, when we reject the challenge, that's used against us as "proof" that we can't live without drinking.

I refuse to play that kind of game. I've played it often enough to know how it turns out.

[ February 05, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: stubbornkelly ]

 

I wonder what the consumption level is for defenders of “having a little wine?” JohnV’s a glass with a meal is hard to chastise. But hanging out at a pub? Sorry but that’s not “set apart!” Neither is it God’s “good, pleasing and perfect will” for you. When I was a drinker, if I couldn’t get “tipsy,” why bother was my thoughts? But if any of you get the least bit tipsy, consider:

"Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." (Eph 5:15-18 NIV)

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." (1 Cor 6:19-20 NIV)

"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. (Mat 5:14-16 NIV)

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Rom 12:1-2 NIV)

 

John Wells said:

But hanging out at a pub? Sorry but that’s not “set apart!”

There is no moral difference between having a glass of Chardonnay with lunch at your usual after-church rotisserie chicken establishment, and having it at your local pub.

Neither is it God’s “good, pleasing and perfect will” for you.

This is a theological claim, and therefore requires theological proof. I submit to you that there is not a single verse of Scripture that forbids having a drink in a pub.

 

Ransom,

I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree! By the way, are your drinking buddies saved? Are the majority of your friends born again Christians or non-believers? Which crowd are you more comfortable hanging around? Would you rather attend a Christian social or be with your pub buddies? Do you listen to, laugh, and partake in the vulgar jokes that invariably pervade such places? Redeemed means "set apart." Think about it.

P.S. I have said that I would never judge someone for moderate alcohol consumption, but the environment in your case is my cause for greater concern.

[ February 05, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

First of all I can say with certainty that drunkenness is a sin.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are also verses that discourage people from drinking if it will cause another to stumble:

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

But before you say, "Okay, i will not drink until I'm drunk and I will not drink around people who I know have/had an alcohol problem...but so far, i see nothing wrong with drinking in moderation," I would like to draw your attention to a couple other verses.

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Have you seen beer comercials promising a "good time" or heard people say that drinking is beneficial to your health? Wine is seeking to mislead you. How does it do that? It entices you to try is "just once."

"Alright," you may think,"that's all well, and good; but it doesn't seem cut and dry. There still seems to be some possible room for debate."

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

Is not Christ our king? As Christians are we not His children? Isn't each one of us a prince or a princess? It is not for us. Why? The chapter later goes on to say to give strong drink to them that are dying or have a heavy heart...Wine is not for us, because it is only for people who have no hope. As Chritians, we should have the hope of God within us.

Pro 23:31-32 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

I believe that this verse is saying not to look at wine and desire it, similarly to the way one might lust after someone. "Wine is a mocker," don't be misled by it's color and sparkle and bubbles....for the end result is drunkenness.
The rest of Proverbs 23 talks about the effects of alcohol...how it effects inhibitions, perception of danger, and memory; and it talks about its addictive nature.
I have heard some say that this verse says that we should not even look at alcohol period. But, in a world where bottles of wine are across the aisle from paper plate in the supermarket, it's hard to avoid it completely. But, perhaps if we can avoid it as best as we can, we will not fall into that temptation.

 

If you take it literally, then these verses are specific to wine, and not other alcoholic beverages. Therfore, according the way you read it, it is still acceptible for a Christian to consume beer and spirits.

 

You were talking about advertisements. Wine doesn't seek to mislead anyone - marketers do.

I'm curious. There's been a lot of talk about separation. How is having a glass of wine, or even having a pint at a pub, being more "of the world" than going to a restaurant, a movie, or any other thing the "pagans" do? Is beer really more of the world than, say, chocolate milk?

 

For the record now, we've moved from just consuming non-mind altering amounts of alcohol to the environment where it's consumed. So . . . different issue, different biblical guidance:

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. - Matthew 6:21 (NIV)

2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1 (NIV)
“Therefore come out from them and be separate,
says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the
Lord Almighty.” Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Please read the above scriptures, again, slowly. I was a bartender for 3 years and prior to becoming a new creation in Christ, I spent considerable time in bars. I don't recall anything that edified Christ happening in that environment, ever! What kind of conversations take place in bars/pubs? Most of it is gossip and trash talk! With each successive drink it gets worse. I listened to it on the other side of the bar for three years.

Hear me and hear me good. If you say you have Jesus in your heart and you cannot or will not give up the bar life then at best, you have one foot in God's kingdom and one foot in "the world!" At worst, Satan has you deceived into believing you have even one foot in God's kingdom!

If "your treasure" truly is worshiping at the feet of Jesus Christ, I honestly don't see how anyone could stand the "bar scene."

 

Could you not have done the same thing without the wine?

Sue </font>[/QUOTE]Sure, there are plenty of other ways to relax and be joyous. We could have gone swimming or for a walk or something, but this particular night we chose to go to dinner and have a glass of wine.

I assure you the only thing that came out of the evening was good - total relaxation, fellowship, my dinner digested easier, I shared the Word as did my friends, the waiter got a good tip, we listened to a beautiful country version of Amazing Grace on the way back to the church, ect.

Long story short - We obeyed Gods commands in regard to alcohol and the night was good, there wasn't a thing sinful about it.

 

John Wells said:

I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree!

Feel free, but recognize that I take "agree to disagree" as a code word for "I can't refute you, but I'm going to stick to my opinion anyway."

By the way, are your drinking buddies saved?

I don't have "drinking buddies."

Are the majority of your friends born again Christians or non-believers?

The former.

Which crowd are you more comfortable hanging around?

My Christian friends. Not that I don't shy away from social events with co-workers, etc.

Would you rather attend a Christian social or be with your pub buddies?

I don't have "pub buddies," so this is a false dilemma. The question is invalid.

Do you listen to, laugh, and partake in the vulgar jokes that invariably pervade such places?

Your question is based on a false assumption, that vulgarity "invariably" abounds in pubs. That is not the case. Therefore, the question is invalid.

Redeemed means "set apart." Think about it.

Not so; it means to recover ownership by the payment of a price.

but the environment in your case is my cause for greater concern.

You should be more concerned that you are jumping to conclusions. You don't know what kind of establishments I patronize. You simply assume the worst. How charitable of you.

 

John Wells said:

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. - Matthew 6:21 (NIV)

Nice try, but Jesus was talking about greed, not where you go for refreshment.

 

Yes, this is something of a topic switch. Yet, I don't see the relevance of the verse you gave to my question. It does not assist with the difference between the two - pub or restaurant.

"Touch no unclean thing" - I don't, at least not intentionally.

And Ransom's points about your many assumptions are correct. In reference to my post, you mentioned "If you say you have Jesus in your heart and you cannot or will not give up the bar life then at best, you have one foot in God's kingdom and one foot in "the world!" I have no "bar life," and I don't see how you took "going down the pub for a pint" to mean having a "bar life." Going down the pub to be with friends is little different from going to a restaurant to do so.

I'm not criticizing people for going to restaurants, but I'm really asking what the difference is. Both are "of the world," yet one is seemingly more acceptable than the other.

 

Jesus was saying where you spend your money, your heart will be there also.

Don't forget; The Holy Spirit goes with you wherever you go. I just can't seem Him being comfortable in a smoke-filled bar with lewd jokes being passed around.

Sue

 

I Am Blessed 16 said:

Jesus was saying where you spend your money, your heart will be there also.

This is also incorrect. The verse, in context, is about accumulating wealth, not "where you spend your money":

In other words, do not have a materialistic attitude by accumulating earthly wealth that will ultimately perish; rather, have a heavenly attitude; keep your mind on heaven and disdain materialistic wealth.

It says nothing about where you hang out.
It says nothing about where you spend your money.

Perhaps if the anti-alcohol people can't do better than abuse Bible verses to make their point, they should concede defeat or admit that their views are based on subjective preferences, rather than the clear teaching of the Word of God.

On the other hand, I will continue to drink my wine with thanks to the God who provides it for our happiness.

 

Take it any way you want. There is plenty of scriptural refutation in this thread (by others and myself) that you refuse to consider. It's pretty easy to tell when someone's mind is made up. BTW, "Where your treasure is . . . " has a wider application according to the cross references in my Bible. But then what do the world's greatest theologians know compared to you?

If Jesus were to show up at your door today, would you say, "Hey I've got an idea. Why don't you and I go down to my favorite pub and have a pint together?" Let me guess. You'll say in your own words that Jesus would approve.

If you aren't interested in being completely sold out to Jesus, and are content to be a half-baked Christian that's your business. I'll not throw any more pearls your way on this issue!

 

That's not what He was saying at all.

If God is omnipresent, then isn't the Holy Spirit there, anyway?

What about the bars around here where smoking is illegal and where we don't tell lewd jokes?

 

Me, personally? If I didn't think Jesus would approve, I likely wouldn't be doing it. Although, I'd probably want to stay home - quieter, you know.

That's just it - none of us are half-baked Christians (based on what I know of the others in this thread who drink alcohol, anyway). It's really too bad that you would think that of us. We've clearly stated our position, I think, and rather clearly. As have you. But because of disagreement, we're "justifying sin" and are "half-baked Christians," according to you.

Keep your pearls.