alcohol and the Christian

Why wouldn't He?

Why do you assume that someone who doesn't want to be held by manmade rules when the Bible gives us the liberty to disagree is a "half baked" Christian?

 

Why not?

Just because you had a problem, why do you assume that the rest of us do, too?

I agree.

Actually, when read in contxt, I believe this is talking about sexual sins.

I agree. What does this have to do with anything?

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I agree. Again, so what?

 

John Wells said:

There is plenty of scriptural refutation in this thread (by others and myself) that you refuse to consider.

Not only did I not refuse to consider it, I believe I have already said (twice) that I agree with that Scripture, properly understood.

If any Scripture has gone unrefuted on this thread, it's Psa. 104:15.

BTW, "Where your treasure is . . . " has a wider application according to the cross references in my Bible.

The cross-references in your Bible are the words of men, not of God.

But then what do the world's greatest theologians know compared to you?

I don't know whether they are the "greatest" or not. Anonymous authority is useless.

If Jesus were to show up at your door today, would you say, "Hey I've got an idea. Why don't you and I go down to my favorite pub and have a pint together?"

You must have a very low view of the King of Kings for such a question even to be thinkable. I'd be too busy worshiping.

If you aren't interested in being completely sold out to Jesus, and are content to be a half-baked Christian that's your business.

Who says I'm not interested? I live my life according to the revealed will of God in the Scriptures, not by some teetotaller's wishful thinking.

 

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. - Hebrews 4:13

I'll leave those who feel that drinking in a bar/pub is OK to ponder that verse. And certainly you and HE know your behavior there, whether or not it glorifies the King. He knows your heart also, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I am amused by many of the posts herein.

One says, "The Bible condemns drunkeness."

Another says, "The Bible does not condemn drinking wine."

Another uses the word "legalists."

How many of us (Rufus mainly) prefer our "right in Christ" to do certain things which are "lawful" to us but which may not be "expedient" to us and others? The weak brother ought not wrongfully judge the strong brother for his "freedom" and the strong brother ought not rightfully judge the weak brother for his "bondage." Indeed, the Lord is the Judge.

A spiritual hero whom I much admire once said: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful; all things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify. Let no one seek his own; but each one the other's well-being." He also said: 'For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more...."

I have been learning the lesson taught in those verses for more than 50 years now. WE can and do brag about our FREEDOM IN CHRIST but can WE also praise God for our BONDAGE TO ALL so that WE might win the more?

Rufus

 

Rufus, John Wells, and others:

I totally understand what you are saying. I even agree. But my concern is this: you are using such arguments against those who use alcohol responsibly and privately, when such arguments would also work against yourselves for other liberties. I know a LOT of Christians who abuse caffeine. I know a LOT of Christians who are overweight and abuse eating sweets and fatty foods. And yet other Christians have *no problem* eating doughnuts or drinking coffee, even *in front* of these people, even ***offering*** it to those that struggle with, abuse and sin with these substances!

Yes, abuse of sugar is usually does not lead to tragic consequences that can arise from abuse of alcohol. But the potential results are just that: results. The underlying principles, arguments, and justifications are *identical*.

Why do you eat doughnuts, knowing that you "poison" yourself and may cause others to stumble by your actions, yet at the same time condemn others who *responsibly* partake of *the exact same type of liberty* with a different substance? Can you not see this is a huge double standard?

 

Amen! God doesn't jump to false conclusions. Neither should we. Thanks!

 

I'm curious why it would be inappropriate to ask another Christian "Would you like a glass of wine", but there is nothing wrong in asking "Would you like a cup of coffee". If we're to apply the warning of not causing another to stumble, wouldn't it apply to both?

 

I'm sure that caffine occasionally causes a few people some health problems, and yes our bodies can become addicted to caffine. But you will find no other drug in the history of the world that comes even remotely close to causing all the devastation of lives and families that alcohol has: spouse and child abuse, drunk driving murders and disfigurations, wrecked marriages, rapes, broken homes, lost jobs, crime (a high percentage of all crimes involve a person under the influence of alcohol), lost work productivity (corporations can provide staggering figures on $$/hrs. lost due to alcohol abuse, and on and on. Now do you think coffee belongs in the same league?

Ever play with a stick in a campfire as a kid? It's fun! But the stick gets shorter and shorter and a little kid usually doesn't have enough sense to get a new longer one. Besides they get "attached" to the stick the more they play with it. So if allowed to keep playing long enough, eventually the child will get burned. That's the way alcohol is. The longer you play with it, as fun and harmless as it seems in your infancy stage of using it, the greater your risk of it causing pain in some shape or form in your life. Ask one of the millions of alcoholics in this country if when they tipped that very first glass of beer, wine, or hard liquer to their lips, did they say to themselves, "You know, one day I'm going to be an alcoholic!" Stephen Curtis Chapman, who's father died of alcoholism, calls alcohol "Satan in a bottle!" Like the kid playing with a stick in a fire, keep doing it long enough and you have a future appointment with pain!

 

I'm sure that caffine occasionally causes a few people some health problems, and yes our bodies can become addicted to caffine. But you will find no other drug in the history of the world that comes even remotely close to causing all the devastation of lives and families that alcohol has: spouse and child abuse, drunk driving murders and disfigurations, wrecked marriages, rapes, broken homes, lost jobs, crime (a high percentage of all crimes involve a person under the influence of alcohol), lost work productivity (corporations can provide staggering figures on $$/hrs. lost due to alcohol abuse, and on and on. Now do you think coffee belongs in the same league?</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I get it... It's the "Guns kill people" argument that is usually used to promote the banning of firearms. I didn't realize that you hold to the philosophy that inanimate objects are the cause of problems in the world.

I agree. Children don't have enough maturity to drink alcohol without parental supervision.

Hmm.... It would seem that the more experience you have with alcohol, the more you will know your limits.

There's a similar story to tell of those who get their driver's license. How many new drivers decide that they are going to be killed in a car crash?

While I have enormous sympathy for anyone who has experienced pain because of the sins of their parents (his father is responsible for his actions by the way), I would have to disagree with Mr. Chapman. And yes, I have several close friends who are the children of alcoholic parents. I know a little bit about that.

Yes. Don't be immature and childish with your use of alcohol or you will inflict pain for yourself and others.

 

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that abstinence from alcohol is a bad. On the contrary, it's quite noble. However, that does not make the responsible consumption of alcohol less noble.

I've already stated that every Sabbath meal in Jesus time and today is accompanied with wine. Yet I doubt there are many Sabbaths that are not glorifying to God.

 

John, you seem to be equating the potential results of the abuse of something with how sinful that thing is. That's already been discussed many times, and Baptist Believer has again pointed out that the line of argumentation breaks down very easily. I would add that because you can get burned with the stick in the fire, what are you doing building a fire in the first place??? You should abstain from fire!

I was hoping you would at least try to address the comments about the double-standard, of exercising liberty with other substances that also cause health problems and cause others to sin. Do those activities not follow the same principles, despite (usually) not resulting in as tragic potential results if abused?

 

John, you misunderstood my intention for those comments. It was a joke to make a point, and your response shows you agree with my point: just because something can potentially burn you if abused and used irresponsibly, that doesn't mean it's sinful to enjoy using it responsibly.

Still waiting for a comment about the liberties taken with other stumbling-causing substances.