Featured Alcohol

The "stumbling" issue is brought up a lot, but what exactly does it mean?

Can someone provide a comprehensive definition of what it means to "cause a brother to stumble"?

For example, if a beliving abstainer saw another believer who they thought was also an abstainer drinking alcohol and that caused the observer to go out and start drinking, yes, that would be causing a brother to stumble. No question.

But if, in the same situation, the believing abstainer kind of shrugs his shoulders and doesn't think about it, is that causing a stumble?

 

For me its when I have the "weaker brother" scold me for my position that I believe Scripture supports and attempts to judge my standing before the Lord. This in turn causes me to be angry with my brother

 

OK, care to expound on those verses and explain to me how they don't REALLY mean what they seem to be saying?


Good articles to read:

http://www.calvaryprophecy.com/q130.html

http://www.learnthebible.org/jesus-and-wine.html

Quote from John McArthur on Christians drinking alcohol:

http://www.gty.org/Blog/B110809

 

Precisely--"not be given to much wine", meaning drinking in moderation is allowed. This is NT theology.

 

I will once you address the Scripture already given and bumped by InTheLight numerous times on this thread. Lets substitute alcohol with "fried foods" in Johnny Mac's quote. Still hold true? I'll expect you to no longer partake of anything fried or containing saturated fats from this point on, right?

 

I already addressed that with the links to three articles in my post. Read those and then get back with me. Care to have this discussion with John McArthur? He disagrees with you too.

 

I don't want to read links to three articles...I want you to address them.

I edited my reply and dealt with MacArthur's faulty conclusions. I expect you to no longer eat anything fried or containing saturated fats as the world indulges these poisons to our bodies which leads to the number one cause of death in the country.

 

Here you go. Rather long but you asked for comprehensive.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Nor to drink wine - Wine was a common drink among the Jews, and usually esteemed lawful. But the Nazarites were not allowed to drink it Numbers 6:3, and the Rechabites Jeremiah 35 drank no wine, and it is possible that some of the early converts regarded it as unlawful for Christians to drink it. Wine was moreover used in libations in pagan worship, and perhaps the Jewish coverts might be scrupulous about its use from this cause. The caution here shows us what should be done "now" in regard to the use of wine. It may not be possible to prove that wine is absolutely unlawful, but still many friends of "temperance" regard it as such, and are grieved at its use. They esteem the habit of using it as tending to intemperance, and as encouraging those who cannot afford expensive liquors. Besides, the wines which are now used are different from those which were common among the ancients. That was the pure juice of the grape. That which is now in common use is mingled with alcohol, and with other intoxicating ingredients. Little or none of the wine which comes to this country is pure. And in this state of the case, does not the command of the apostle here require the friends of temperance to abstain even from the use of wine?

Nor anything - Any article of food or drink, or any course of conduct. So valuable is peace, and so desirable is it not to offend a brother, that we should rather deny ourselves to any extent, than to be the occasion of offences and scandals in the church.

Stumbleth - For the difference between this word and the word "offended," see the note at Romans 11:11. It means here that by eating, a Jewish convert might be led to eat also, contrary to his own conviction of what was right, and thus be led into sin.

Or is made weak - That is, shaken, or rendered "less stable" in his opinion or conduct. By being led to imitate the Gentile convert, he would become less firm and established; he would violate his own conscience; his course would be attended with regrets and with doubts about its propriety, and thus he would be made "weak." In this verse we have an eminent instance of the charity of the apostle, and of his spirit of concession and kindness. If this were regarded by all Christians, it would save no small amount of strife, and heart-burnings, and contention. Let a man begin to act on the principle that peace is to be promoted, that other Christians are not to be offended, and what a change would it at once produce in the churches, and what an influence would it exert over the life!

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

It is good neither to eat flesh, etc. - The spirit and self-denying principles of the Gospel teach us, that we should not only avoid every thing in eating or drinking which may be an occasion of offense or apostasy to our brethren, but even to lay down our lives for them should it be necessary.

Whereby thy brother stumbleth - Προσκοπτει, from προς, against, and κοπτω, to strike, to hit the foot against a stone in walking, so as to halt, and be impeded in one's journey. It here means, spiritually, any thing by which a man is so perplexed in his mind as to be prevented from making due progress in the Divine life. Any thing by which he is caused to halt, to be undecisive, and undetermined; and under such an influence no man has ever yet grown in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Or is offended - Η σκανδαλιζεται, from σκανδαλον, a stumbling-block; any thing by which a person is caused to fall, especially into a snare, trap, or gin. Originally the word signified the piece of wood or key in a trap, which being trodden on caused the animal to fall into a pit, or the trap to close upon him. In the New Testament it generally refers to total apostasy from the Christian religion; and this appears to be its meaning in this place.

Or is made weak - Η ασθενει, from α, negative, and σθενος, strength; without mental vigor; without power sufficiently to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, lawful and unlawful. To get under the dominion of an erroneous conscience, so as to judge that to be evil or unlawful which is not so. The two last terms are omitted by two excellent MSS. (the Codex Alexandrinus and the Codex Ephraim), by the Syriac of Erpen, the Coptic and the Ethiopic, and by some of the primitive fathers. It is very likely that they were added by some early hand by way of illustration. Griesbach has left them in the text with a note of doubtfulness.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

It is good neither to eat flesh,.... Any sort of flesh, even that which is not forbidden in the law, rather than offend a weak brother; and the apostle determines for himself, that he would not, where there was any danger of doing this, 1 Corinthians 8:13.

Nor to drink wine; not only the wine of libations to Heathen deities, but wine in common; which was not prohibited by the law of Moses, but in the case of a Nazarite, and of vows:

nor anything, be it what it will,

whereby thy brother stumbleth. The Syriac version reads, "our brother"; anyone that stands in such a spiritual relation to any of us; and for which reason care should be taken, that no stumblingblock, or occasion to fall, should be put in his way; particularly that Christian liberty in things indifferent be not unseasonably and imprudently used, and so become a means of stumbling and staggering to weak minds:

or is offended; to that degree, as to censure and judge him that eats, as an impious person, and a transgressor of the law; with whom he cannot keep his communion, but withdraws himself from it, and is even tempted to drop his profession of the Christian religion entirely, being ready to think it is not right, since contrary to the law of Moses:

or is made weak; more weak in the faith than he was before, and his love is weakened and grows very cold and indifferent to his Christian brethren, that can take and use a liberty which he cannot. These two last phrases are not in the Syriac and Ethiopic versions, nor in the Alexandrian copy, though in others, and are used for the sake of explanation and amplification.

People's New Testament

14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, etc. If eating any kind of food, or drinking wine, is the way of your brother's peace and security, it is better to abstain from both. Deny yourself rather than offend a brother. Compare 1Co 8:13. This maxim applies to all things indifferent. It applies to wine-drinking at our time. No Christian ought ever to set an example that may destroy another.

Wesley's Notes

14:21 Thy brother stumbleth - By imitating thee against his conscience, contrary to righteousness. Or is offended - At what thou doest to the loss of his peace. Or made weak - Hesitating between imitation and abhorrence, to the loss of that joy in the Lord which was his strength.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

21. It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing-"nor to do any thing"

whereby-"wherein"

thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak-rather, "is weak." These three words, it has been remarked, are each intentionally weaker than the other:-"Which may cause a brother to stumble, or even be obstructed in his Christian course, nay-though neither of these may follow-wherein he continues weak; unable wholly to disregard the example, and yet unprepared to follow it." But this injunction to abstain from flesh, from wine, and from whatsoever may hurt the conscience of a brother, must be properly understood. Manifestly, the apostle is treating of the regulation of the Christian's conduct with reference simply to the prejudices of the weak in faith; and his directions are to be considered not as prescriptions for one's entire lifetime, even to promote the good of men on a large scale, but simply as cautions against the too free use of Christian liberty in matters where other Christians, through weakness, are not persuaded that such liberty is divinely allowed. How far the principle involved in this may be legitimately extended, we do not inquire here; but ere we consider that question, it is of great importance to fix how far it is here actually expressed, and what is the precise nature of the illustrations given of it.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

14:19-23 Many wish for peace, and talk loudly for it, who do not follow the things that make for peace. Meekness, humility, self-denial, and love, make for peace. We cannot edify one another, while quarrelling and contending. Many, for meat and drink, destroy the work of God in themselves; nothing more destroys the soul than pampering and pleasing the flesh, and fulfilling the lusts of it; so others are hurt, by wilful offence given. Lawful things may be done unlawfully, by giving offence to brethren. This takes in all indifferent things, whereby a brother is drawn into sin or trouble; or has his graces, his comforts, or his resolutions weakened. Hast thou faith? It is meant of knowledge and clearness as to our Christian liberty. Enjoy the comfort of it, but do not trouble others by a wrong use of it. Nor may we act against a doubting conscience. How excellent are the blessings of Christ's kingdom, which consists not in outward rites and ceremonies, but in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost! How preferable is the service of God to all other services! and in serving him we are not called to live and die to ourselves, but unto Christ, whose we are, and whom we ought to serve.

 

I attended a Baptist Church once who's Covenant required that all abstain from Alcohol except under a prescription from a doctor.
...funny.

As for those who might become offended..., there are thin-skinned folks who rise each and every morning seeking something to be offended by.

 

But that's because you're insecure enough in who you are as a man of God and allow others to shake your foundation. And that's also because you're weak in your faith and don't attain the righteousness of God in your anger.

I assume you made your post with an air of sarcasm about it and so I'm answering in kind. There's a lot of truth in both, either way.

:tongue3:

 

Funny? Really?

Ah, so if someone is "thin skinned" it's OK to ignore Scripture, and offend them anyway??!! Heaven help us, Lord. :tonofbricks:

 

And those who don't agree with it? It is not part of the Baptist Faith and Message. Do you think every baptist church should have to adopt it?

This is no argument for teetotalism. This is simply an argument for not drinking in the presence of ignorant Christians (that's what weaker brethren are).

So one should never do anything in ANY context if ANYBODY in any OTHER context could possibly be offended?

For example, one should not drink responsibly in the privacy of his home if there is anybody on earth anywhere who has a problem with it- even if that person never sees the Christian enjoy his liberty?

Then let me tell you something- NOBODY could ever do ANYTHING.

You misunderstand the "offend the weaker brother" rule in the Bible.

You want to apply it universally and it was not meant to apply universally. It is in a local church context.

This is not true. You state it as a fact without any support whatsoever. First of all, ALCOHOL does not itself CAUSE misery. People cause the misery. It's the same principle as the old gun rights adage- Guns don't kill people- people kill people.

Secondly, many millions of people enJOY the benefits of alcohol every day.

God SAID that people who want to enjoy these benefits SHOULD do so. God made wine for the purpose of making the heart merry. The Bible is very clear about this. When you say something is evil that God said is good- you sin- greatly.

This is the problem with basing your beliefs on the traditions ingrained in you from your isolated culture. It almost ALWAYS leads you to sin.

To say Christians should leave it alone is really a sin.

You totally misunderstand that verse. The point is "He that is not fully satisfied in his mind; who does not do it with a clear conscience..." (Barnes).

If you drink without a clear conscience, it is a sin. People who are handicapped by the culture in which they were raised (which is probably you) are weaker brothers. These weaker brother should not do things that culture has made them think is wrong- because TO THEM it is a sin. If they think it is wrong and they do it- then they sin. Fortunately many Christians are mature enough to know better.

To a more mature Christian not so bound by his culture it is certainly NOT a sin. It is a good thing so long as he is mindful of weaker brothers and does not do it to spite them.

But since drinking responsibly is a GOOD thing according to God himself there is no appearance of evil to it.

 

This one's easy for me. I'm on the "can't even be around the odor of the stuff without shaking" side of the issue. It's a never ending struggle.

This puts me in a vulnerable position in that I need constant encouragement or maybe edification or even brotherly assistance to play keep-away with/from the horrors of alcohol in my life. My wife does a handy job in that role.

It certainly wouldn't hurt however to have support from others. That wouldn't be the case with you and many others here. In fact, all of the justification I'd need to go back to drink, particularly Biblical justifications, you've helped provide. Like it or not, you (and others) come in here to "proclaim" your freedoms (and they are, I won't argue that) in a form or manner that is for all accountability, teaching...well, you can do the rest of the math from here.

My fall into that old life, my sin. I have to say though, it's so much easier when I have a pep-squad cheering the behavior on. <--- feel free to split hairs with that last one.

 

Aww...c'mon, Monster!! You're just one of them.....

:smilewinkgrin:

 

I would like to ask a simply honest question of those that have posted on this thread that believe in drinking. Question: Did you drink before you made a profession in the Lord, and in your moderate drinking have you at any time gotten drunk? For those that will not answer these two simple questions, i will take their silent answer as a yes.

 

Angry much?

 

This language misrepresents the issue. You should have said, "...the horrors of alcohol ABUSE..."

We don't believe in saying "deliver us from the horrors of guns". We say, "Deliver us from the horrors of the abuse of guns" or "from the horrors of guns in the wrong hands".

This is not a forum for you. Weaker brothers have no business in such a place. We don't send weaker brothers to church committees when we know they can't handle the controversy that may arise. We don't even ALLOW them to come into such meetings. We say, "What is discussed in this room is to stay in this room. There are those who lack the maturity to be able to process it properly."

You have no business on a thread like this.

If you had a foot fetish could we not discuss the liberty to wear flip flops?

Of course.

The strong can only look out for the weak AS MUCH AS THE WEAK WILL ALLOW the strong to look after them.

Take this from those of us who are stronger than you (we don't have your problems)- get out of here and don't come back. This is no place for you.

 

Yepper. Angry, assumptive, arrogant and to quote you, "uneducated & ignorant." How special, you win the thread!

If I don't belong, have me banned then. Otherwise, ignore me...for I have nothing to offer the strong. And while you're at it, why not try and chase away everyone that disagrees with you or offers real life experiences that run contrary to your reign here.

:thumbsup: