Alive once

[webdog]

No. When a person is born physically, that is the first birth. When they are born spiritually, that is the second birth. All people are born dead in sin. For instance, David says "in sin did my mother conceive me". The fact that people are born the first time spiritually dead is why one "must be born again".

Since death is the ceasing of life...and you believe we are born into this world spiritually dead...at what point in the womb from conception did spiritual life cease?
I'm not following your train of thought on "must be born again". If one must be "born again", there was already a spiritual birth and death in order for one to be born again. That phrase in itself refutes the notion man is born spiritually dead. Augustinian original sin is one of the worst doctrines to come into the church.

 

[swaimj]

Webdog,
The first birth is a physical birth. However, all who are born physically are dead spiritually. So, there must be a second birth, that is, a spiritual birth.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,
The first birth is a physical birth. However, all who are born physically are dead spiritually. So, there must be a second birth, that is, a spiritual birth.

That still doesn't make sense when Scripture states "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die". If man is born spiritually dead, that is a second "appointment".

Also, kindly answer the questions I put forth. If death is the ending or ceasing of life (life is needed first in order for death to occur)...when was the infant alive so that death occured?

 

[swaimj]

That still doesn't make sense when Scripture states "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die

Then how can John, in the book of Revelation, speak of the second death?

 

[swaimj]

If death is the ending or ceasing of life (life is needed first in order for death to occur)...when was the infant alive so that death occured?

I do not agree with your definition of death. How did you arrive at this definition?

 

[webdog]

Then how can John, in the book of Revelation, speak of the second death?

Please clarify. Where in Revelation? Is it appointed unto man once to die...or not?

 

[webdog]

I do not agree with your definition of death. How did you arrive at this definition?

That is the definition of death from everywhere I have seen. Do you have another definition of death not in the english dictionary? From Websters....

Main Entry: death Pronunciation: \ˈdeth\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English deeth, from Old English dēath; akin to Old Norse dauthi death, deyja to die — more at die Date: before 12th century 1 a: a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life — compare brain death b: an instance of dying <a disease causing many deaths>

 

[swaimj]

Webdog,
I am at work at the moment and I do not have a Bible. Later tonight, when I am home, I will try to provide you an answer. Thank you for your patience.

 

[Amy.G]

Webdog,
The first birth is a physical birth. However, all who are born physically are dead spiritually.

Why then did Paul say he was alive once, but when the law came, he died? He did not die physically. He died spiritually when he understood the Law. He then became accoutable to it and died spiritually. That is why we have to be born again. Not physically, but spiritually. Just as Adam was alive spiritually when he was created, he died spiritually when he "knew" that he had sinned. He knew because he understood God's command and willingly broke it.

If we are born dead spiritually, then Jesus would have said "in order to see the kingdom of God, you must be born". Instead He said we must be born again. We are born into the world as babes who are spiritually alive, but when we understand God's laws and break them with full knowledge, we die spiritually. We are not talking about the physical birth or death when we speak of being born again. We die once physically. But everyone dies spiritually when they willfully sin. There will be a second spiritual death for those who reject Christ as Savior. These will go to the lake of fire (the second death) which is eternal.

 

[skypair]

No. When a person is born physically, that is the first birth. When they are born spiritually, that is the second birth. All people are born dead in sin. For instance, David says "in sin did my mother conceive me". The fact that people are born the first time spiritually dead is why one "must be born again".

Well, whereas I see your point, I believe you are wrong. "Born again" means that the SAME essence that was born once is "born again" -- otherwise it wouldn't be "born AGAIN" but born for the first time.

I haven't read him but I see webdog is joining the convo. Let me get back with this.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Then how can John, in the book of Revelation, speak of the second death?

One easy analysis of that situation is that the lost are raised and die again physically. That's what I believe. They don't spend eternity in bodies in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is a spiritual place for the souls and spirits of the lost.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

One easy analysis of that situation is that the lost are raised and die again physically. That's what I believe. They don't spend eternity in bodies in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is a spiritual place for the souls and spirits of the lost.
skypair

John is speaking of the fulfillment of that second death that came up a man when he sinned. The same as the appointment of death, its not at that exact moment, althrough he is perishing everyday of his life, (or dying) if you preferr. We are slowly dying everyday of our lives. The same with the second death. It is sent on you because of sin and fullfilled completely at the LoF.

Just one thing. You can escape that second death, though you sin and its sent upon you, but by the blood and Grace of God, by believeing in Christ, you can escape the second death (or LoF), and have it removed.

It is the whole purpose of Jesus Christ, so we can escape the second death or (LoF), that is pronounced upon a man when he sins.

You cannot escape the appointment of death physically, for there is no escape from that death.



BBob,

 

[swaimj]

Revelation 21:8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

 

[Brother Bob]

Revelation 21:8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Do they do those acts of sin right then, or did they do them through their life???? (unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation). Did death overtake them in that condition without forgiveness??

BBob,

 

[swaimj]

Amy G. said:

If we are born dead spiritually, then Jesus would have said "in order to see the kingdom of God, you must be born".

If you are never born physically, then you are not even a person and you never have an opportunity to be born a second time, that is, spiritually.

Notice Nicodemus' response to Jesus when Jesus said "You must be born again". Nicodemus replied "Can a man enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" This shows that the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual.

Also, I must ask: When Paul says that he was alive before the law, does that mean he was without sin? I don't see how that can be since Paul says earlier in Romans 2:12, "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law". This shows that men are sinners whether they have the law or not.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy G. said:
If you are never born physically, then you are not even a person and you never have an opportunity to be born a second time, that is, spiritually.

Notice Nicodemus' response to Jesus when Jesus said "You must be born again". Nicodemus replied "Can a man enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" This shows that the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again, He was speaking of spiritual birth, not physical. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus, " "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" Nicodemus did not understand, even though he should have because he was a teacher and knew the scriptures. He thought Jesus was speaking of physical birth, but if He had been, we would be born again physically. That is the mistake that Nic made.

Also, I must ask: When Paul says that he was alive before the law, does that mean he was without sin? I don't see how that can be since Paul says earlier in Romans 2:12, "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law". This shows that men are sinners whether they have the law or not.

"Alive" without the law means that he was not accountable to God for his sin because he did not "have" (understand) the law. When he understood the Law and understood that he had broken it, he died. He then became accountable to God for his sin. At that point, he needed to be "born again". Not born again in the physical sense, but the spiritual sense.
Yes, men are sinners even without ever knowing the Jewish Law. God has written His law on our hearts, so that all are without excuse. Even ungodly nations have a moral law and if they break it, their hearts are pricked.

 

[Brother Bob]

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again, He was speaking of spiritual birth, not physical. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus, " "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" Nicodemus did not understand, even though he should have because he was a teacher and knew the scriptures. He thought Jesus was speaking of physical birth, but if He had been, we would be born again physically. That is the mistake that Nic made.



"Alive" without the law means that he was not accountable to God for his sin because he did not "have" (understand) the law. When he understood the Law and understood that he had broken it, he died. He then became accountable to God for his sin. At that point, he needed to be "born again". Not born again in the physical sense, but the spiritual sense.
Yes, men are sinners even without ever knowing the Jewish Law. God has written His law on our hearts, so that all are without excuse. Even ungodly nations have a moral law and if they break it, their hearts are pricked.

Their concious was a law unto them and their youth were without that Godly concious, so they also were not accountable.
This does not include Paul though, for the Law was around his entire life, but yet he was alive without it, (his youth). When the Law did come it brought forth sin and death.

It just shows that God never held the very young accountable, before the Law was ever in existence, or after. For there is a Spirit in man that teacheth him right from wrong. Right has always been right and wrong has always been wrong, Before men's concious made it known, later the Law made it know. It would be hard to find one of the Laws, that was not in existance in the concious of man, long before the Law was written on a tablet.

I mean, Cain slew Abel "thou shalt not kill", the day you eat thereof, thou shalt not surely die, "thou shalt not lie", Sodom and Gormorah.

"You must be born again". The soul that sinneth shall die, and to escape the second death, "You must be born again".

It is dead in sin, away from God, which is a sure ticket to the Lake of Fire, unless it is born again. In the LoF, it will die and never die in torment.

How could a soul die, if it is born dead.



BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Amy G. said:
If you are never born physically, then you are not even a person and you never have an opportunity to be born a second time, that is, spiritually.

Notice Nicodemus' response to Jesus when Jesus said "You must be born again". Nicodemus replied "Can a man enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" This shows that the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual.

Also, I must ask: When Paul says that he was alive before the law, does that mean he was without sin? I don't see how that can be since Paul says earlier in Romans 2:12, "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law". This shows that men are sinners whether they have the law or not.

Well, that is how Nicodemus looked at it alright. I believe Jesus told him he was wrong.

 

[swaimj]

Nicodemus did not understand what it meant to be born again, but surely he know what it meant to be born. To be born is to be born physically. If not, then what is the first birth?

 

[Brother Bob]

Nicodemus did not understand what it meant to be born again, but surely he know what it meant to be born. To be born is to be born physically. If not, then what is the first birth?

I am talking but can get the scripture if you insist. John the baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb. It was not the flesh that was filled but the spiritual part of him.

When a baby is born, the spiritual part of that baby is born alive, but the soul that sinneth, shall die. So, it must be "born again" to escape the second death and go to Heaven. The soul is "born again" when the blood is applied to the soul, with the promise of: "if the same spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead, it shall also quicken your mortal body. Also, "the creature itself shall be delivered also from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the children of God".
The also plays a great big part in this scripture, it tells us a part has been delivered and the body also shall be delivered.

I have a feeling you are playing the devils advocate, which is fine with me, for these are good questions and answers, for all.

When the soul sinneth, it dies once. If it never receives the blood of the lamb, it will die a "second" death in the LoF.

When the body dies physically, it is once. If the body also never believes then it will receive the same "second" death in the LoF.

BBob,