all alone amillenialist

The correct eschatology: pretribulation rapture,
pre-millinnial Second Advent of Jesus (physical Millinnial
Kingdom) Futurist, is insperatable from the other Major
Doctrines. No Major doctrine is complete without the
pretirublation rapture/resurrection.

Recall these are the Major Doctrines:

Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
Christology - The Study of God the Son
Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)

Eschatology - The Study of Last Things

Eschatology is interwoven with the other Doctrines
of the Bible. Obviously i spend all my time making
a living and supporting the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
eschatology on the internet, else i would write a book showing
how these great doctrines taught in the Bible all lead ONLY
to the correct Eschatology: pretrib, pre-mill, and futuristic.
(Well, till the Lord comes to glorify us at the pretribualtion
rapture/resurrection - Then the whole Gentile Church will be
Preterists )

----------------------------------------

tee hee - a document using ten words that don't appear in the Bible

 

Here is a writing showing similiar pretribulation rapture/resurrection
elements of the premillinnial Second Coming:

-------------------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

Ed,

You really have serious problem with your interpreting of Matt. 24:29-31. You always keep on saying Matt. 24:31 is rapture and resurrection, in your intepret, it speaks of pretrib rapture. And you say of Matt. 24:29-30 is the second advent. You really have a serious problem with your intepreting. The problem of your intepreting. There is not a hint find anywhere in context of Matthew 24 show of two comings. No way you can prove it is two comings in that context. Christ never saying anything of two comings in that context. Christ tells us very clear, there shall be a future single coming at the end of the age.

Over 95% of pretribs know Matt.l 24:31 is posttrib gathering. I am sure most of pretribs might not agree with your interpreting. Because you did not follow the hermenuetic rule - 'Interpreting in CONTEXTUALLY'. You always keep on separate verse 31 from verse 29-30. Over 95% of pretribs are AWARE of Matt. 24:29-31 telling us very clear that Christ shall come again immediately after tribulation because of the context.

Secondly, there is not a hint of 1,000 years find anywhere in context of Matthew chapter 24 and 25. No way you can prove 1000 years in that context, because Christ doesn't saying it.

Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us very clear, there shall be the only ONE future final judgment day follow Christ's coming at the end of the age. No way, you can find two or three different judgments days anywhere in context of Matthew chapter 24 and 25.

I do not believe in complex teaching by Jesus Christ about his coming and the end of the age. I believe Christ gave simple teaching to His disciples and people, so, He wants them to understand his teachings.

Pretribulationism doctrine is an actual complex, because it is fill of men's philosophy and their guessworks. I rather follow what Christ & God's Word saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

What if Christ were to come before the tribulation and establish His presence in the clouds, and stay there throughout the duration of the tribulation? Would that make it better? Then you wouldn't have to worry about Christ coming and then coming again.

 

Tee Hee - wouldn't that be gloriful

DeafPosttrib: //Secondly, there is not a hint of 1,000 years find
anywhere in context of Matthew chapter 24 and 25. No way you can
prove 1000 years in that context, because Christ doesn't saying it.//

Neither does Song of Songs have anything about
Christ or the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. However,
Song of Solomon does NOT contradict Christ
nor the Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. Sorry Bro,
but each passage has to NOT CONTRADICT any
other passage. You just cannot get rid of Revelation 20
because of what you think 2 Peter 3 says.

 

Ed,

Revelation 4:1

You saying Rev. 4:1 is a type of rapture.

You have a serious problem with Rev. 4:1. Rev. 4:1 say nothing about the coming of Christ, neither it mentioned of resurrection in that passage.

Many pretribs saying, of Rev. 4:1a - "After this...", they intepreting it means, after the church age. But, John doesn't saying it. They just added unto God's Word.

Rev. 4:1-2 was speak toward only ONE person - John, not whole church. John was told by angel, to come up, he was caught up in HIS spirit. I understand it means John's vision as supernatural communication between angel and John.

"Come hither' find three times in Revelation - 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9. These have do nothing with rapture or coming either. 'Come hither' of 4:1; 17:1; & 21:9, these are speak of John was called to come here by the angel through his vision or supernatural communication. For the purpose, the angel shows John the things. The word, 'revelation' means to manifest something with supernatural communication.

Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are not discuss about rapture or coming. That context is talking about the activity in the heaven around the throne of God. I believe these are happening already long time ago to today.

Early Church fathers understood Revelation 4 and 5 are talking about the activity in the heaven around the throne of God.

Today, pretrib's interpreting on Rev. 4:1 show the rapture of the church.

Also, the reason why they saying it. Because the word, 'church' is not find from chapter 4 to 18, prove that the church is not present on earth during tribulation. Problem is, neither saying anywhere from chapter 4 to 18 that the church is appear in the ehaven either. Pretrib's argument on the absence of church is a weakeness and no reason.

Throughout chapter 6 to 18 telling us so much overwhelmed that God's people are still present on earth. They are God's church. No necesscary to argue with you. You have to adopt what the book of Revelation saying. Believe it.

Later next week, I am plan to discuss on Revelation chapter 20. Because Premills always often emphasis on chapter 20, to prove there is a millennial kingdom, because of 'a thousand years' saying so. I will discuss on that next week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

James,

I would be LOVE to be rapture before tribulation, so, we would not have to worry about persecutions, Antichrist, and 666. I am telling you the honest. I am WISH that the Bible shows us much more clarify prove that we shall be gathering up before tribulation, that would be wonderful.

But.... I cannot find a single scripture anywhere in the Bible saying rapture shall be occur first before tribulation. Second, there is not a hint verse find anywhere in the Bible saying that Christ shall come again before tribulation. I consider, Matthew 24:29-31 is the probably strongest evidence prove that Christ shall come again by follow after the tribulation. You have to adopt what Christ actual saying it. Believe His word. Not follow or listen to any men's teaching of their own philosophy according Colossians 2:8.

Let you know, what if suppose Christ comes today- PRAISE THE LORD! :thumbsup: I must always be watch and ready for His coming. Or, if suppose Christ come after tribulaiton, I still always be watch and ready all the times, no matter what.

To be honest with you. There is so much weight evidence and overhwlemed in the Bible telling us that Christ shall come after the tribulation at the end of the age. I rather follow what the Bible actual saying than what men saying. I accept God's Word, and agree with Christ's words.


By the way, are you the soldierrof Christ? If so, why you shall have much tribulations according John 16:33; & Acts 14:22? What is the purpose of facing tribulations?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: //I do not believe in complex teaching
by Jesus Christ about his coming and the end of the age.
I believe Christ gave simple teaching to His
disciples and people, so, He wants them to understand his teachings.//

What might be complex to one is simple to another.
The Pretribualtion Premillinnial doctrine is very simple
and much more inspiring than is the Post-tribulation
A-mill doctrine - and also true.

The purpose of any Eschatology is to increase the
service to Messiah Jesus (2 Peter 3:11-14).
Another purpose of any Eschatology is to encourage
one another (1 Thess 4:18, 1 Thess 5:11)

DeafPosttrib: //Pretribulationism doctrine is
an actual complex, because it is fill of men's
philosophy and their guessworks. I rather follow
what Christ & God's Word saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.//

Your opinion is hardly shared by anybody. Do you want
me to start a poll so you find out? BTW, my testimony
is that I developed my Eschatology from Study from
the Bible under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
Figure out if you can how the Holy Spirit is leading
both you and me raying:

 

DeafPosttrib: //To be honest with you. There is so much
weight evidence and overhwlemed in the Bible telling
us that Christ shall come after the tribulation at the
end of the age. I rather follow what the Bible actual
saying than what men saying.//

I agree, Christ will come at the end of this present age
to get his Church Age born-again elect saints and then
the Tribulation Period will begin on those gentiles
LEFT BEHIND. What you say is what a man says:
Bro. DeafPosttrib is a human.

----------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

Ed,

1 Thess. 4:18 is not talking about to encourage or to comfort each other for escape from the comign tribulation. The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 talking about the hope and resurrection follow at Christ's coming. Verse 13- Paul told them, do NOT BE SORROW over their love ones , who already died in Christ. He told them about the hope of their love ones, that they shall see their love ones again. And Paul explained them, about their love ones' bodies in the graves, what will be happen to their body. He told them, that they are now with the LOrd in the heaven, speak of their soul/spirit. When Christ shall come again, He shall bring with them from heaven, and they shall be risen from the graves with their body. So, alive and remain shall be caught up to meet Christ in the air, and they shall see their love ones again. That will be a GREAT REUNION DAY! That what comfort is for. The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 say nothing about persecution or tribulaiton. It talk about their sorrow over their love ones, who already died in Christ. He told them, do not sorrow over them. He encourage them to be excite that they shall see their love ones again at Christ's coming, that will be a great reunion day.

1 Thess. 5:11 have do nothing with the timing of Christ's coming or rapture. It talks about to encourage them and to exhort their spiritual up.

You cannot prove 2 Peter 3:11-14 is a pretrib rapture. Notice verse 12-13 telling us, that we should be exciting and eager looking forward for Christ's coming, SO, the old heavens and old earth shall be burn away, and shall see new heavens and a new earth. Obivously, it is refer with Revelation chapter 21 talking about future eternality follow after the end of the age at Christ's coming.

Your logical and intepreting of 'pretrib' with verses, are not clear prove and flaw. Because there is not a hint find any verse in the Bible teaching us of future two comings. Throughout in the New Testament clearly teaching us, Christ shall come again at once follow at the end of the age. Very simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

I need go to sleep now. Because I will go to work 3rd shift tonight. I will reply back to you tomorrow or next week to be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

We look forward to your continued participation. May you
have a good work experience this evening.

May all God's best blessings fall unto Brother DeafPosttrib, his
family, and his ministry. May this be done so that we might
give all the more blessings to our Blessed Lord and Savior:
Messiah Jesus. Amen!

 

I'm Amillenialist, been convinced its the best way of interpreting the whole of scripture.

However, if God decides to do it different to how i think, then thats ok, after all He knows more than I do.

Also, I've heard/read opinions on other millenial views by enough devoted and scholarly cristians to respect their different views even f i don't hold them. I do have theis thought of some dispensationalists standing there at the Lord's return saying something like "NO, you can't come just yet.. its not time according to my diagram".

Regards
Bob

 

Tee Hee, it is strange how we have such pictures.
I like this picture of the pretribulation resurrection/rapture:

I hope the rapture comes while I'm still alive and with some lost
guys. As I'm swept up I'm going to grab me a lost fellow in
each arm. I'll witness to them and go through the 'plan of salvation'.
At about 30,000 feet high I'll ask them to BELIEVE or be dropped :saint:

What I see personally is a post-tribulation only resurrection/rapture-ist
at the pretribulation resurreciton/rapture saying:
'I/m not ready to go for 3½ more years, Lord. I was hoping to
earn a couple more promotions by holding out awile against
the Antichrist. Can you leave me behind, Sir?'

 

I think this is a very healthy attitude regarding the issue. I feel the same way. Too many on both sides of the fence feel like they have it nailed down completely and theirs is the only way.

:laugh:

 

Wouldn't that be awesome?

I'd love to be wrong, but on the other hand I'd hate to be unprepared.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it.

I think we have a number of weak and infantile Christians and that it relates to a pre-mill type teaching. Nobody is being prepared for anything but being whisped away before the real trials begin. If Christians can't stand strong and faithful now against the relatively normal evils, what is going to happen when they begin being tortured in earnest, when the comforts of the lifestyle we're used to are taken away, when miracles occur to trick us and they aren't being done by God?

It's a scary thought. And those that weren't prepared for it are going to be crushed under the weight of it. I can't see pre-trib teaching as good scriptural analysis, and certainly it hasn't done Christianity any favors so far.

 

The apostle Paul know this?

 

Yes Webdog.

He said that there will be many saints on earth when Christ returns.

How will they be there if the thousand year reign is now, and if there is no hope of salvation during the thousand years for the unbelievers, as someone else has stated will be the case?

 

You're assuming that someone would reject Christ solely on the basis that he might have a later chance down the road after a rapture event.

My goodness...you'd have to believe 1) That Christ is who he says he is 2) That a rapture will occur 3) There will be later opportunities and 4) You'll live to see them.

I very highly doubt a person in that position would suddenly have a change of heart because of amillennialism.

Of course, no one is guaranteed to live to see the return of Christ. You could drop dead in 5 secs. There is no guarantee that you'll ever get that "second chance."

Unbelievers don't make contingency plans based upon an eschatological system that belongs to a religion they don't profess.