All Atonement is Limited by Something

[atpollard]

So we know that faith is a human choice.

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.” [Romans 12:3 NASB]

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;” [Ephesians 2:8 NASB]

 

[Reformed1689]

The question is “Why is faith the qualifier for salvation & not any other trait or indicator?”

Ask the author of Hebrews.

 

[Reformed]

I want to provide a different take on a limitation of the Atonement. Some of this has already been touched on in this thread but I want to add some nuance to the discussion.

The blood of Christ can never be limited. Any limitation has to do with God's intent of the Atonement, not the Atonement's lack of sufficiency. God intended for the Atonement to save those He intended to save - the Elect. The Elect is a finite number of people chosen by God from eternity past (Ephesians 1:4). The Atonement does have temporal benefits for all men. Christ has tarried unto now, allowing all men to enjoy God's blessings and provision in this life. However, the spiritual and eternal benefits of the Atonement are intended only for the Elect. This is why I am in agreement with the late R.C. Sproul in referring to Limited Atonement as Definite Atonement. The late Dr. Sproul said:

"What is in view here is God’s purpose, His design. Did God intend, when He sent into the world His Son to die, did He intend that that death would actually save people, or did He just hope it would? I mean, to ask a question like that is to answer it. You know very well that God knew from all eternity who was going to come to His Son and who wouldn’t. He knew that the death of Christ had a definite purpose, that would definitely be accomplished, and definitely was accomplished.

If you look at it like that, how can you speak of anything but a definite atonement? So first of all, the atonement is limited in its efficacy to all who believe. I think we can agree on that. But it’s also limited in its eternal design for God’s elect—that Christ laid down His life for His sheep and all for whom Christ died come to Christ, experience His redemption, and are redeemed forever."

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for this helpful post Reformed.
Sorting out the discussion can be helpful indeed.

 

[Gup20]

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.” [Romans 12:3 NASB]

This is talking about spiritual gifts, not salvation. Equipping.

Romans 12:6-7 (NASB) 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;​

That’s not talking about the grace & faith of salvation, but the grace & talents for work in the body of Christ.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;” [Ephesians 2:8 NASB]

Calvinists totally & completely butcher this passage. Grace is the subject, not faith. Grace is not of yourselves... it is the gift of God.

We have been saved by grace through faith.... not the other way around. If faith were the subject, it would say “you have been saved by faith through grace.”

 

[Gup20]

Ask the author of Hebrews.

Don’t have to.. he’s already explained it:

Hebrews 8:7-13 (NASB) 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9:15 (NASB) For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10:9 (NASB) then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

These are the same two covenants spoken of in Galatians 2-4, and in Deuteronomy 30.

 

[Gup20]

I want to provide a different take on a limitation of the Atonement. Some of this has already been touched on in this thread but I want to add some nuance to the discussion.

The blood of Christ can never be limited. Any limitation has to do with God's intent of the Atonement, not the Atonement's lack of sufficiency. God intended for the Atonement to save those He intended to save - the Elect. The Elect is a finite number of people chosen by God from eternity past (Ephesians 1:4). The Atonement does have temporal benefits for all men. Christ has tarried unto now, allowing all men to enjoy God's blessings and provision in this life. However, the spiritual and eternal benefits of the Atonement are intended only for the Elect. This is why I am in agreement with the late R.C. Sproul in referring to Limited Atonement as Definite Atonement. The late Dr. Sproul said:

"What is in view here is God’s purpose, His design. Did God intend, when He sent into the world His Son to die, did He intend that that death would actually save people, or did He just hope it would? I mean, to ask a question like that is to answer it. You know very well that God knew from all eternity who was going to come to His Son and who wouldn’t. He knew that the death of Christ had a definite purpose, that would definitely be accomplished, and definitely was accomplished.

If you look at it like that, how can you speak of anything but a definite atonement? So first of all, the atonement is limited in its efficacy to all who believe. I think we can agree on that. But it’s also limited in its eternal design for God’s elect—that Christ laid down His life for His sheep and all for whom Christ died come to Christ, experience His redemption, and are redeemed forever."

I agree with this. However, I would add to the nuance you’ve initiated by including the notion that, as a result of Christ & His righteousness, all human beings (whether saved or unsaved) will be resurrected to face a 2nd judgement (the great white throne judgement). That universal repeal of Adam’s judgement (the curse) lends to the confusion of whom Christ’s atonement affects. On the one hand, because of righteousness there is universal resurrection... but on the other hand, because of grace through faith many will have Christ’s righteousness applied to them in the individual great white throne judgement, while many others will be resurrected to eternal judgement & torment.

So as it pertains to resurrection, the atonement is unlimited, but as it pertains to judgement, the atonement is limited.

 

[Van]

I want to provide a different take on a limitation of the Atonement. Some of this has already been touched on in this thread but I want to add some nuance to the discussion.

The blood of Christ can never be limited. Any limitation has to do with God's intent of the Atonement, not the Atonement's lack of sufficiency. God intended for the Atonement to save those He intended to save - the Elect. The Elect is a finite number of people chosen by God from eternity past (Ephesians 1:4). The Atonement does have temporal benefits for all men. Christ has tarried unto now, allowing all men to enjoy God's blessings and provision in this life. However, the spiritual and eternal benefits of the Atonement are intended only for the Elect. This is why I am in agreement with the late R.C. Sproul in referring to Limited Atonement as Definite Atonement. The late Dr. Sproul said:

"What is in view here is God’s purpose, His design. Did God intend, when He sent into the world His Son to die, did He intend that that death would actually save people, or did He just hope it would? I mean, to ask a question like that is to answer it. You know very well that God knew from all eternity who was going to come to His Son and who wouldn’t. He knew that the death of Christ had a definite purpose, that would definitely be accomplished, and definitely was accomplished.

If you look at it like that, how can you speak of anything but a definite atonement? So first of all, the atonement is limited in its efficacy to all who believe. I think we can agree on that. But it’s also limited in its eternal design for God’s elect—that Christ laid down His life for His sheep and all for whom Christ died come to Christ, experience His redemption, and are redeemed forever."

God chose Christ as His lamb, His Redeemer, and therefore corporately chose all those His Redeemer would redeem.

The benefit of Reconciliation goes to those reconciled, placed spiritually in Christ and having their sin burden removed by the Circumcision of Christ. We are chosen to be placed in Christ through the sanctification (setting apart) by the Spirit and faith in the truth as determined by God crediting our faith as righteousness. So simple a cave man could grasp it.

God's plan of redemption was definite, He would redeem those whose faith He credits as righteousness Some deny God sets before us the choice of life or death and encourages us to choose life. But scripture is on our side.

See 2 Peter 2:1-2 if you deny Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

 

[Van]

Whole world doesn't mean individuals necessarily. Do you deny that there are times when whole world does not mean every individual? .

1Jo 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Jo 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Rev 3:10
‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole [fn]world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [fn]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Rev 16:14
for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole [fn]world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

Footnote [fn] literally "inhabited earth"

John is consistent, he uses the phrase to refer to all of fallen mankind, and not some of it.

 

[Reformed1689]

1Jo 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Jo 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Rev 3:10
‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole [fn]world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [fn]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Rev 16:14
for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole [fn]world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

Footnote [fn] literally "inhabited earth"

John is consistent, he uses the phrase to refer to all of fallen mankind, and not some of it.

Easy to cherry pick verses. Look at his Gospel. You will see MANY different uses of world.

 

[Van]

Easy to cherry pick verses. Look at his Gospel. You will see MANY different uses of world.

Note no examples of whole world or whole inhabited earth were provided where all of fallen mankind is not in view.

 

[Gup20]

1Jo 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Jo 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Rev 3:10
‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole [fn]world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [fn]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Rev 16:14
for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole [fn]world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

Footnote [fn] literally "inhabited earth"

John is consistent, he uses the phrase to refer to all of fallen mankind, and not some of it.

I think a better example are these two:

1Co 15:21-22 NASB
21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Rom 5:18 NASB
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

I like these two passages because of their comparative nature. They both compare the resurrection which comes from Christ to the death which came from Adam. This comparison is ingenious because it locks the redemption in step with the condemnation... whatever you try to apply to one must necessarily apply to the other. So if you want to say "Christ's atonement is limited to some" you have to show how based on these two passages Adam's death was limited to some (which cannot be done).

Of course, the best explanation is that there are two judgments.... Adam's judgement was a corporate judgement which affected everyone universally. However, because of righteousness and it's existence in the world, that judgement has to be repealed so that individual judgments can take place (the great white throne judgement). Therefore, since the death (death was the judgement of Adam) Adam's sin brought was universal, repealing Adam's judgement so that you can make individual judgments has a universal resurrecting effect. So in that sense, Jesus and his righteousness have brought life in exactly the same way that Adam and his sin brought death - on universal scale. However, the story doesn't end there (sorry universalists!). Then an individual judgement occurs where every mans sin is upon himself and himself alone. Rather than the corporate judgment of Adam in which one sin condemns all, each persons sin will condemn only them in the great white throne judgement. This is where faith in Christ comes into play... in the individual judgement. If we have Christ's righteousness applied to us individually through our faith, then we are judged righteous in the individual judgement (the great white throne judgement). We all know this already... but why does no one put 2 and 2 together to understand how this contrasts with the original, universal judgment of Adam?

So we can see how life comes to the whole world... yet ... not eternal life in the kingdom of God. For those without faith in Christ, there will be a second judgement of eternal death.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

Now go back and read Romans 5:12-21 with this understanding, and use a piece of paper to plot out how the death and life are compared and contrasted. Show how they are a like, and show how they are different. What emerges will be clear picture of what I'm describing - a corporate judgement of Adam repealed in lieu of individual judgments. The judgment of a single sin of Adam versus forgiveness of many sins of many individuals.

If all sinned in Adam's one, single sin... then forgiving the one sin of Adam would literally save every human being. Why doesn't it? Because each of us has our own individual sin. In the end, we will be judged in the great white throne judgement as individuals, not corporately.

 

[atpollard]

I like these two passages because of their comparative nature. They both compare the resurrection which comes from Christ to the death which came from Adam. This comparison is ingenious because it locks the redemption in step with the condemnation... whatever you try to apply to one must necessarily apply to the other. So if you want to say "Christ's atonement is limited to some" you have to show how based on these two passages Adam's death was limited to some (which cannot be done).

I actually like your thoughts about the resurrection of all to judgement and can see some scriptural support for that view in other verses. I am merely pointing out a flaw in your conclusion “which cannot be done”.

Adams curse was passed on to every person without exception that was a CHILD OF ADAM (which is all without exception) while the deliverance of Christ is passed on to every person without exception that is a CHILD OF GOD (which is some from every nation, tribe and tongue, but not every person without exception).

 

[Van]

I actually like your thoughts about the resurrection of all to judgement and can see some scriptural support for that view in other verses. I am merely pointing out a flaw in your conclusion “which cannot be done”.

Adams curse was passed on to every person without exception that was a CHILD OF ADAM (which is all without exception) while the deliverance of Christ is passed on to every person without exception that is a CHILD OF GOD (which is some from every nation, tribe and tongue, but not every person without exception).

I almost hit the "agree" button, your post makes an excellent and valid point. I am unfamiliar (or do not recall) the verse that says a Child of God can be found in every nation, tribe and tongue. But I can agree, such will be the case at the end of the age, as reported in Revelation.

 

[Gup20]

I actually like your thoughts about the resurrection of all to judgement and can see some scriptural support for that view in other verses. I am merely pointing out a flaw in your conclusion “which cannot be done”.

Adams curse was passed on to every person without exception that was a CHILD OF ADAM (which is all without exception) while the deliverance of Christ is passed on to every person without exception that is a CHILD OF GOD (which is some from every nation, tribe and tongue, but not every person without exception).

I was referring to:

Hebrews 9:27 (NASB) And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

 

[atpollard]

I was referring to:

Hebrews 9:27 (NASB) And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

I know. I just also see in many verses where scripture CAN have two meaning, that it often DOES have two meanings and both meanings reveal a different spiritual Truth.

For example, the famous [John 3:16] "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

It could be understood to mean that God so loved “all of creation”, which would agree with the intention of [Rom 8:19-22] “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.” and represent an end to the curse of [Gen 3:17-19] "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

It could also be understood to mean that God so loved “every person without exception”, which is also a truth supported by [Eze 18:32] "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Lastly, it could also be understood to mean that God so loved “some from every nation”, which is also a truth supported by [Isa 49:6] He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." and [Mat 28:19] “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” and [Col 3:11] “Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.”

It is my personal belief that all three meanings are deliberate and proclaim a different truth. God so loved His “creation” that God sent Jesus to ultimately restore everything to “very good” status (Gen 1:31; 2 Peter 3:13). God so loved “every person without exception” that God provided a Savior that God had no obligation to provide to mankind at all, and he accomplished this task by taking on the form of His creation and living among them as one of them. God so loved “His sheep” (the Elect) that God was not content to provide a Savior that all men would reject, so God chose to save some by grace alone through the faith that was His gift to His sheep which He drew to the Son.

 

[Reformed1689]

Note no examples of whole world or whole inhabited earth were provided where all of fallen mankind is not in view.

Not even all of your examples has all of fallen mankind in view.

 

[Revmitchell]

Unless you believe in the unbiblical doctrine of Universal Salvation (every person, without exception, is going to Heaven), then you believe in SOME SORT of limitation on the Blood of Christ to save.

Black and white fallacy. Neither does there have to be a limitation of the blood of Christ to save no matter what you believe unless it is exactly that which you believe.

There is no limitation on the blood of Christ to save. How it gets applied is the real issue.

 

[atpollard]

Black and white fallacy. Neither does there have to be a limitation of the blood of Christ to save no matter what you believe unless it is exactly that which you believe.

There is no limitation on the blood of Christ to save. How it gets applied is the real issue.

Apparently you missed the rest of the post ...

For General Baptists, the Blood of Christ was applied to the sins of all (every person without exception). However, it is clear that every person without exception will not be saved.

The Blood of Christ is applied to all, but not all benefit from it.

So do you disagree with “it is clear that every person without exception will not be saved” or “The Blood of Christ is applied to all, but not all benefit from it”?

If you do not disagree, then how can there be no limit on the Blood to save if it was applied to all but all were not saved?

Explain how the black and white fallacy applies in this case.

 

[Revmitchell]

Apparently you missed the rest of the post ...





So do you disagree with “it is clear that every person without exception will not be saved” or “The Blood of Christ is applied to all, but not all benefit from it”?

If you do not disagree, then how can there be no limit on the Blood to save if it was applied to all but all were not saved?

Explain how the black and white fallacy applies in this case.

I disagree with your first statement I quoted. I did not address the rest of the post as is my prerogative. It applies because you said it must either be this or that. Whenever that is said it is almost never true.