All Atonement is Limited by Something

[MB]

The atonement has to pay for whatever is not of faith in order to pay for sin. Whatever is not of faith is sin. So universalist unwittingly limit it, gutting it of its capacity to pay for sin since all but believers perish. If people choose to believe, as they say, the atonement becomes unnecessary because believing needs no atonement.

Of course you can prove this with scripture. What say you?

 

[GoodTidings]

Really, how did the Exodus help out Pharaohs army?

??? Did you actually read my post? If the atonement were limited, then God would have had the death angel only some Israelites to pass over. But the blood on door posts of all the Israelites homes protected all of the first born in those homes and led the redemption of the ENTIRE nation, not an "elected" group of the Israelite nation.

In fact, any Egyptian first born in the home of Israelite with the blood on their door would have been spared that night.

 

[Iconoclast]

??? Did you actually read my post? If the atonement were limited, then God would have had the death angel only some Israelites to pass over. But the blood on door posts of all the Israelites homes protected all of the first born in those homes and led the redemption of the ENTIRE nation, not an "elected" group of the Israelite nation.

In fact, any Egyptian first born in the home of Israelite with the blood on their door would have been spared that night.

Yes...for the firstborn....but what of the soldiers. How did the Exodus benefit them?
Did God love them and desire their salvation as you said the Exodus was all about that?

 

[GoodTidings]

Yes...for the firstborn....but what of the soldiers. How did the Exodus benefit them?
Did God love them and desire their salvation as you said the Exodus was all about that?

The nation of Egypt was under God's judgement for their enslavement and bitter treatment of the Israelites. Any Egyptian soldier who was a first born child not under the blood would have died. But that is the product of the judgement of God, not the product of any kind of limited atonement. So I am not sure what you are getting at about the soldiers.

That being said, salvation was available for the Egyptians. Any Egyptian first born that was in the house of an Israelite that had the blood on its doors would have been saved. So there was no "limited atonement." The blood would have saved both Egyptian and Israelite that night, and it likely did because Egyptians were among those who were saved and left Egypt with the Israelites.

 

[Iconoclast]

The nation of Egypt was under God's judgement for their enslavement and bitter treatment of the Israelites. Any Egyptian soldier who was a first born child not under the blood would have died. But that is the product of the judgement of God, not the product of any kind of limited atonement. So I am not sure what you are getting at about the soldiers.

That being said, salvation was available for the Egyptians. Any Egyptian first born that was in the house of an Israelite that had the blood on its doors would have been saved. So there was no "limited atonement." The blood would have saved both Egyptian and Israelite that night, and it likely did because Egyptians were among those who were saved and left Egypt with the Israelites.

Actually it was because God was preserving the godly line.
The High Priest wore 12 stones on His breastplate on the day of atonement.
Who do you thing he was interceding for?

 

[GoodTidings]

Actually it was because God was preserving the godly line.
The High Priest wore 12 stones on His breastplate on the day of atonement.
Who do you thing he was interceding for?

I think you have the wrong person. That post has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

First of all, you don't EVER question the ever-present power and salvation of the Blood of Jesus Christ! Jesus is the Son of God, and He died so all would have the OPPORTUNITY to be saved! And God does NOT lie, nor is His Power limited in any way, shape, or form. To say such is pure blasphemy!

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is not the Lord's will that any should suffer the fires of Hell, that is why He gives us a chance to be saved from our sins by the Blood of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice means we don't have to die the second death! If Jesus never died on the cross, we'd all be doomed for eternity! The Lord God created the Heavens and the Earth, crafted man from dust, and performed many more miracles than you could ever fathom! His power is NOT limited at all!

However, man is very limited. We are all sinners by nature, and have the choice to do either good or evil. If you've committed a crime and you owe millions of dollars, but the judge pulls out a contract and says, "I can pay your debt right now, just sign right here and the slate's wiped clean." You still have to sign that contract! That is on you! The Lord is not limited at all, nor is the Power in the Blood of Jesus Christ, but people are completely fallible and given the choice to either accept His Salvation or deny it. You are the one who is limiting yourself by clinging to your sinful nature.

It's like if every store in the world was giving out unlimited free donuts. It's open to everyone, but you still have to go and get it yourself. It's not the store's fault if you decide not to get a donut, they still have unlimited donuts for everyone. The opportunity is still there, you just need to go get it.

 

[1689Dave]

Of course you can prove this with scripture. What say you?

I cannot prove it from scripture because it is how Arminians see the atonement. And it is unscriptural. What I'm saying is that the atonement doesn't atone for sin at all according to the logic of their position.

 

[Gup20]

I cannot prove it from scripture because it is how Arminians see the atonement. And it is unscriptural. What I'm saying is that the atonement doesn't atone for sin at all according to the logic of their position.

Both Arminians and Calvinists are dead wrong most of the time. This is why the debate between them is never resolved... hard for anyone to win when both positions are false.

 

[1689Dave]

Both Arminians and Calvinists are dead wrong most of the time. This is why the debate between them is never resolved... hard for anyone to win when both positions are false.

OK....... You have three choices. God alone saves people (Calvinism/Augustinianism). People save themselves with God's help (Arminianism/Catholicism) and people alone save themselves (Pelagianism/Socinianism). = you are Pelagian?

 

[Gup20]

The atonement has to pay for whatever is not of faith in order to pay for sin. Whatever is not of faith is sin. So universalist unwittingly limit it, gutting it of its capacity to pay for sin since all but believers perish. If people choose to believe, as they say, the atonement becomes unnecessary because believing needs no atonement.

The argument against the lie of universalists is one of the most common I see, however, it is a strawman argument, because universalism is an inadequate, one-dimensional picture of what scripture describes.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

So we see that RESURRECTION is universal, but SALVATION is not. Both resurrection and salvation are results of Christ and His atonement. Resurrection is possible because Christ's righteousness exists. Salvation is possible because of Christ's sacrifice.

The corporate judgement of Adam (the curse, death) will be repealed. Until a single righteous person existed, that judgement has been sufficient and just. But once there is ONE righteous person, that judgement is no longer just. It must be repealed in lieu of individual judgments (Rev 5:1-10). This is what the great white throne judgement is... an individual judgment... whereas Adam's judgement was corporate... everything and everyone got the same sentence for one man's sin.

Calvinists and Arminians constantly conflate these judgments and their remedies. This is why Calvinists limit resurrection to the elect and Arminians extend Salvation to all. Neither understand these are two separate things cause by separate aspects of Christ and His atonement.

 

[atpollard]

First of all, you don't EVER question the ever-present power and salvation of the Blood of Jesus Christ! Jesus is the Son of God, and He died so all would have the OPPORTUNITY to be saved! And God does NOT lie, nor is His Power limited in any way, shape, or form. To say such is pure blasphemy!

This is funny. So emphatic and so self-contradictory at the same time!

"First of all, you don't EVER question the ever-present power and salvation of the Blood of Jesus Christ!"
I don't. I believe that the blood of Jesus Christ does, in fact, save every single person that it is applied to without exception.
Do you REALLY believe this?

"Jesus is the Son of God, and He died so all would have the OPPORTUNITY to be saved!"
So which is it? Does the Blood have the power to SAVE everyone that it is applied to, or does it only have the power to grant them the OPPORTUNITY to be saved? You have just emphatically claimed both positions.

"And God does NOT lie, nor is His Power limited in any way, shape, or form."
I do not believe that anyone here believes that God has lied. People both lie and are mistaken all of the time.
Does God have the Power to save without the consent of the human being? Does God create opportunity and wait for human decision? That is the question.

"To say such is pure blasphemy!"
Good thing nobody said it then!

 

[Gup20]

OK....... You have three choices. God alone saves people (Calvinism/Augustinianism). People save themselves with God's help (Arminianism/Catholicism) and people alone save themselves (Pelagianism/Socinianism). = you are Pelagian?

I'm a Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10 believer. Those two passages should end the Calvin vs Arminius debate.

Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Now look at Deu 30:19 very carefully. It says the CHOICE was set before us, and it tell us to choose. It says "I call heaven and earth to witness" the choice you make.

Rom 8:15-17 NASB 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Notice the correlation between the choice God tells us to make in Deuteronomy 30:19 and Romans 8:16; he calls heaven and earth to witness, and the Spirit (heaven) and our spirit (earth) to testify (to bare witness) of the choice we make.

Romans 10 simply tells us that Deuteronomy 30 is all about faith and the salvation that comes from it:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone [for] the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes [in it] will not be disturbed.​

So we know that the human choice talked about in Deuteronomy 30 ... the one that is "not too difficult to make" and the one that is "not made in heaven" is the choice for salvation.

 

[atpollard]

If the atonement were limited, then God would have had the death angel only some Israelites to pass over. But the blood on door posts of all the Israelites homes protected all of the first born in those homes and led the redemption of the ENTIRE nation, not an "elected" group of the Israelite nation.

[Rom 9:22-23] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? [in the desert] And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, [Joshua, Caleb and the children of those who died in the desert] which He prepared beforehand for glory, [entering the Promised Land]

[Mat 22:14] "For many are called, [survived the plague] but few are chosen [enter the Promised Land]."

 

[GoodTidings]

[Rom 9:22-23] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? [in the desert] And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, [Joshua, Caleb and the children of those who died in the desert] which He prepared beforehand for glory, [entering the Promised Land]

That is very sloppy exegesis.
Rom. 9:22-23 is refers to those who made themselves vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. The word for "prepared" in the Greek is in the middle voice which indicates something someone does to himself. In Romans 9 it refers to people who have made themselves fit for destruction. Furthermore, Romans 9 is presented by Paul as a defense of the sovereign choice of God to cause a partial blindness upon Israel when the Messiah came. The entire chapter is about service, not salvation.

In addition, if God were going to destroy them, He would have done so with the plagues. He didn't save the people from the plagues just to bring them out to the desert to destroy them. That is just nonsense. In fact, the basis of their attempted mutiny against Moses was that he led them out to the desert to die. It simply wasn't the case, and the plagues, their deliverance from bondage and the crossing of the Red Sea was proof that their claim was false. You proposing something that is not supported by the text of Scripture. There is NO theological connection between Rom. 9 and the wilderness journey, except the artificial one that you have manufactured.

[Mat 22:14] "For many are called, [survived the plague] but few are chosen [enter the Promised Land]."

Your handling of Matt. 22:14 by penciling in stuff into the text that it does not speak to, is another example of sloppy exegesis.

Matt. 22:14 is about a wedding feast and the man in the filthy garment represents those who try to enter the Kingdom by their works. The wedding garment (righteousness) is supplied by the King. This man was trying to get in on His own merit. The point of the parable, was that we cannot enter the Kingdom on our own merit or perceived goodness.

 

[1689Dave]

I'm a Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10 believer. Those two passages should end the Calvin vs Arminius debate.

Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Now look at Deu 30:19 very carefully. It says the CHOICE was set before us, and it tell us to choose. It says "I call heaven and earth to witness" the choice you make.

Rom 8:15-17 NASB 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Notice the correlation between the choice God tells us to make in Deuteronomy 30:19 and Romans 8:16; he calls heaven and earth to witness, and the Spirit (heaven) and our spirit (earth) to testify (to bare witness) of the choice we make.

Romans 10 simply tells us that Deuteronomy 30 is all about faith and the salvation that comes from it:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone [for] the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes [in it] will not be disturbed.​

So we know that the human choice talked about in Deuteronomy 30 ... the one that is "not too difficult to make" and the one that is "not made in heaven" is the choice for salvation.

You are confusing Law and obedience that cannot save trying to model the gospel after it = having two laws that cannot save.

 

[1689Dave]

The argument against the lie of universalists is one of the most common I see, however, it is a strawman argument, because universalism is an inadequate, one-dimensional picture of what scripture describes.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

So we see that RESURRECTION is universal, but SALVATION is not. Both resurrection and salvation are results of Christ and His atonement. Resurrection is possible because Christ's righteousness exists. Salvation is possible because of Christ's sacrifice.

The corporate judgement of Adam (the curse, death) will be repealed. Until a single righteous person existed, that judgement has been sufficient and just. But once there is ONE righteous person, that judgement is no longer just. It must be repealed in lieu of individual judgments (Rev 5:1-10). This is what the great white throne judgement is... an individual judgment... whereas Adam's judgement was corporate... everything and everyone got the same sentence for one man's sin.

Calvinists and Arminians constantly conflate these judgments and their remedies. This is why Calvinists limit resurrection to the elect and Arminians extend Salvation to all. Neither understand these are two separate things cause by separate aspects of Christ and His atonement.

You still have only 3 choices. God saves and gets the glory. You save with God's help and split the glory. Or you save without God's help and get all the glory.

 

[Reformed1689]

1 Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. 1 John 2:2.

This assumes that whole world means every individual.

 

[Gup20]

You are confusing Law and obedience that cannot save trying to model the gospel after it = having two laws that cannot save.

Friend, I strongly disagree. That is why I said Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10.

Romans 10 tells us that Deuteronomy 30 is NOT talking about the law and obedience, but rather the righteousness that comes by faith. Pay close attention to the following.... the words which are capitalized are where Paul is quoting from Deuteronomy 30:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So we know from Paul's own writing that Deuteronomy 30 is absolutely about the salvation which comes by faith. Furthermore, did you not read Deuteronomy 30:6?

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

So the very context within Deuteronomy 30 is circumcision of the heart, which is salvation by grace through faith. This is why Jesus said, "Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” The law and prophets testify of Jesus.

 

[1689Dave]

Friend, I strongly disagree. That is why I said Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10.

Romans 10 tells us that Deuteronomy 30 is NOT talking about the law and obedience, but rather the righteousness that comes by faith. Pay close attention to the following.... the words which are capitalized are where Paul is quoting from Deuteronomy 30:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So we know from Paul's own writing that Deuteronomy 30 is absolutely about the salvation which comes by faith. Furthermore, did you not read Deuteronomy 30:6?

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

So the very context within Deuteronomy 30 is circumcision of the heart, which is salvation by grace through faith. This is why Jesus said, "Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” The law and prophets testify of Jesus.

You try to turn the gospel into law and grace into works when you pair up the law with the gospel.