Robert Snow
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Another glaring error in Calvinism!
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"all have sinned"
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Another glaring error in Calvinism!
Another Opinion....we know what part of the anatomy there like?
that's not the calvinist position of someone becoming non-elect.
Robert Snow
New Member
What I am saying is that, if Calvinism is correct, either all infants are not elect and therefore go to hell, or they are elect and then some become unelected at some later time.
Once again, you show you have no understanding of the correct teaching whatsoever.
OR...maybe all infants that die are elect. you are either elect or not elect. I believe God has a special case for infants. We are not 100% sure, but that's what I believe. Infants that die go to heaven. The blood of Christ paid for them. As far as election, God knew they would die and elected to save them. The other infants that go on to be older, they may or may not be elect. You don't become unelected. election took place before the foundation of the world.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Chosen before the foundation of the world
I praise God for those chosen before the foundation of the world and for those who He also included with them those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.
I do feel sorry for those cut out for unbelief, but they can be easily grafted back in if they do not continue in their unbelief
I praise God for those chosen before the foundation of the world and for those who He also included with them those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.
I do feel sorry for those cut out for unbelief, but they can be easily grafted back in if they do not continue in their unbelief
all the ones that get saved were chosen before the foundation of the world.
You are saying that you "feel sorry for those elected to unbelief but can be grafted back in IF they do not continue in unbelief." Does that mean that they were once saved and lost their salvation because they did not continue? Is salvation based on works? What does it mean if salvation is based on "continuing in their unbelief."?
psalms109:31
Active Member
They were not elected to unbelief. They were to enter into salvation, but they were not able to enter because of their unbelief.
As the scripture says' about them.
Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
To trust in Jesus is not a work according to God, only men in their own understanding believe trusting in Jesus is a work.
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Hebrews 4
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
If my time machine went back that far I would
I would also address the infant baptism thing...
To get back on track...if I say "all have showered", who is the all? All mankind? Everyone in Adam? Fetuses? What qualifies "all"? Is showering a condition or action? Is this past, present or future?
I believe if we can answer this we can put into context who the "all" is in Romans 3:23.
I believe if we can answer this we can put into context who the "all" is in Romans 3:23.
FWIW
The confession you are quoting is a modified version; the actual 1689 Baptist Confession does not say "Infants dying in infancy..."; it says "Elect infants dying in infancy...".
Are you honestly saying that the "all" of Romans 3:23 is NOT everyone?
If it is not universal then neither is the atonement.
Christ did not need to die for those who have not sinned. There is no sin to cover.
In order to espouse this strange new interpretation of Romans 3:23 you have purported you will need to logically accept the Calvinist position of Limited Atonement.
Furthermore, if Romans 3:23 does not mean every person, then it is foreseeable that there are many in there 20's and 30's who have not yet sinned. Perhaps they have been raised in closed communities like the Amish, or on some island somewhere, etc... but it is perfectly foreseeable that many adults have not yet sinned. They get to go to heaven without the blood of Christ.
And furthermore, the fact of the matter is that the greatest sin any individual person can commit is to break the greatest commandment- to the love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Since no human being has ever done that as he should, then every human being is guilty of the worse sin that any human being can commit.
And one more thing, Romans 5:12-13 makes it clear that all have sinned in Adam. In some inexplicable way we were in Adam when he sinned and we all sinned in him when he sinned. It may be hard to understand, but it is what the Bible says.
This is the question I was referring to...
if I say "all have showered", who is the all? All encompassing? All mankind? Everyone in Adam? Fetuses? What qualifies "all"? Is showering a condition or action? Is this past, present or future?
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