All Humanity Originally In The Book of Life?

[AustinC]

From a different thread:

37818 wrote:
The difference between the saved and the lost are whose names remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. There is a condition upon which one's name is not removed, Revelation 3:5 and 1 John 5:4-5.

Austin said:
I read the 3 references you gave, without explanation, and I think you may be claiming that all humanity is written in the book of life until God erases them from the book.

37818 said:
Yes. That is my understanding of the Scriptures on this matter.

Now do you know why I believe the names start out are in the book, being that all mankind are sinners?

Question:
What do you all think of this? Are all humans initially written in the Book of Life, but then God later erases their names as they sin?

 

[Dave G]

Question:
What do you all think of this? Are all humans initially written in the Book of Life, but then God later erases their names as they sin?

No I do not.
Reason:

" And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." ( Revelation 13:7-8 ).

When the "beast" makes war upon the saints during the Tribulation, all whose names are not written in the Book of Life will worship him.
The elect will not be deceived by him ( Matthew 24:24 ).

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 ).

Reading the above very carefully, this tells me that those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world shall wonder when they behold the beast.
This tells me:

1) That there are names written in the Book of Life.
2) They were written there from ( at the time of ) the foundation of the world.
3) There are people whose names were not written in the Book of Life.
4) Therefore, those whose names were written in the Book of Life shall not worship the beast, exactly as Matthew 24:24 tells us...

The elect will not be deceived into worshiping the beast.
They will know him for who he is, and they are secure in their salvation.

None of the ones God wrote in His Son's Book will ever be lost, none of the ones given to Jesus by the Father will be lost.
All of the ones not given to Jesus by the Father will perish.

 

[37818]

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:7-8 ).

whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,

Not written does not mean having never been written.

On what basis are names in God's book?

First reference, Exodus 32:31-33, ". . . And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ."

The next reference to this book, Psalms 69:26-29, ". . . For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high. . . ."

Relating to the Judgement, Daniel 12:1-3, ". . . thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. . . ."

Now there is a promise not in any way to have one's name removed from the book, Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. . . ." [Revelation 21:7, 1 John 5:4-5, John 3:3.]

And we know in the Judgement who will perish, Revelation 20:15.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What does it mean in Exodus 32:31-33?

And Moses returned to Jehovah, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made themselves gods of gold. And now will You forgive their sin! And if not, I pray You, blot me out of Your book which You have written. And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book

Because of the great sin of the children of Israel against God, Moses suggests that God forgives their sin, but if not, that God shows "blot me out of Your Book which You have written". To which God replies, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My Book". Some, assume that because God says that He would remove the names of those who had sinned against Him, from His Book, that this is not the Book of Life, but some other book. There is no indication anywhere in the entire Bible, that there is more than ONE Book in heaven, which is referred to by different names. Here it is "My Book". In Luke 10:20, Jesus says, "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”. Which no doubt is the same as "My Book", in Exodus. In Philippians 4:3, Paul says, "And I also beg you, true yoke-fellow, help those women who labored in the gospel with me and with Clement, and others of my fellow-laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life". In Revelation this phrase is used 6 times, 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; and 21:27. In the passages in chapters 13 and 17, it says that the names were "written before the foundation of the world". According to the Words of the Lord Himself in Exodus, it is clear that those who sin against Him, their names will be "removed" from His Book. From this it is clear, that all who are ever born, have their names in the Book of LIFE, which is their LIFE, and are "removed" when they do not "repent and believe".

For those who do not agree with this, they must show from the Bible, that there are BOOKS of God that are in heaven, and not The one Book, with different Names. They must also show from Scripture, that God does not really mean that He will actually "remove" names of those who sin against Him, from His Book. Jesus' words in Revelation 3:5, "Everyone who wins the victory will be dressed in white clothes like them. I will not remove their names from the book of life. I will say that they belong to me before my Father and before his angels", can also have a flip meaning. By saying that He would "not remove their names from the Book of Life", must also mean, that they could be removed, otherwise Jesus' words don't make sense. If, as it is suggested, that once the names are written in the Book of Life, they are there forever, and cannot be removed, why would Jesus say what He does, as it is saying something that could never be done!

 

[Dave G]

Not written does not mean having never been written.

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Were not written = Never having been written.
That is how I understand it.

On what basis are names in God's book?

His having written them in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
That is the basis.

The ones that are written are the ones that God their Father gave to His Son ( John 6:37, John 6:65, John 17:2 ), that hear His voice because they are His sheep ( John 10:26-29 ), and hear His words because they are "of" God ( John 8:43-47 ), in addition to having it been given to them in the behalf of Christ, to believe on Him ( Philippians 1:29 ).

They are the same ones that were chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and their belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), believed because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), were predestinated, called, justified and glorified because they were foreknown ( Romans 8:29-30 ), as well as being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated to their adoption as the children of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Equally true is the fact that those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are the very same ones that shall believe on Him to the saving of the soul ( Hebrews 10:38-39 ), were not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ), as well as being the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 ) and being God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that they should walk in them ( Ephesians 2:10 ).


In other words, I see that God's elect, His chosen people, are the ones written in the Book of Life.
Jesus will lose none of the ones that were written in His book.

 

[37818]

None of the ones God wrote in His Son's Book will ever be lost, . . .

Nowhere does Scripture teach being written into His Son's book. The Scripture teaches the overcomers will never have their name removed, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7.

 

[Dave G]

Nowhere does Scripture teach being written into His Son's book.

Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:15.

and this:

" And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." ( Revelation 21:27 ).

According to the above, the Book of Life is the Lamb's Book.
The Lamb is Jesus Christ ( John 1:36 ), therefore it is His Son's Book, is it not?

The Scripture teaches the overcomers will never have their name removed, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7.

I agree.

 

[37818]

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Were not written = Never having been written.
That is how I understand it.
His having written them in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

The ones that are written are the ones that God their Father gave to His Son ( John 6:37, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
They are the same ones that were chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and their belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), believed because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), were predestinated, called, justified and glorified because they were foreknown ( Romans 8:29-30 ), as well as being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predesti9nated to their adoption as the children of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Equally true is the fact that those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are the very same ones that shall believe on Him to the saving of the soul ( Hebrews 10:38-39 ), were not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ), as well as being the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 ) and being God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto Good works, which God has ordained that they should walk in them ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Interpertation.

From is not before, see usage in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26.

If names are never written in the book, then Christ did not die for them to be their Judge either, 2 Corinthians 5:14, Romans 8:34. Which is not the case.

The promise is not to have one's name removed, Revelation 3:5. If one's name is not in the book then that promise is never available to such.

 

[37818]

Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:15.

and this:

" And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." ( Revelation 21:27 ).

According to the above, the Book of Life is the Lamb's Book.
The Lamb is Jesus Christ ( John 1:36 ), therefore it is His Son's Book, is it not?

Do not confuse issues. That the book is God's book and the Lamb's book is not at issue. What is at issue are names being in the book and being removed and not being removed.
* What Scripture gives reason for names being in the book? An argument from silence.
* Scripture speaks of names being removed, Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:27-28.
* Scripture gives a promise to never have a name removed, Revelation 3:5.
* Names not in the book perish, Revelation 20:15.

 

[37818]

His having written them in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

No Scripture gives such an explanation. And if so, that does not explain why. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:27-28.

The Lamb is Jesus Christ ( John 1:36 ), therefore it is His Son's Book, is it not?

Not at isssue.

Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:15.

and this:

" And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." ( Revelation 21:27 ).

You are reading into those texts what they do not say. Those texts do not say when or why names are written in the book.

 

[Dave G]

* What Scripture gives reason for names being in the book?

Revelation 17:8.

No Scripture gives such an explanation.

See above.

And if so, that does not explain why.

Because God decided to do it.
Isn't that enough?

 

[Dave G]

Not at isssue.

Respectfully and from what I can see of your replies, I infer that you said it was not His Son's book.
Scripture says that it is.

If I'm mistaken about what you said, please forgive me.

* Scripture speaks of names being removed, Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:27-28.

I agree.

* Scripture gives a promise to never have a name removed, Revelation 3:5.

Again, I agree.

* Names not in the book perish, Revelation 20:15.

Once again, I agree.

 

[37818]

1) That there are names written in the Book of Life.

Not at issue.

2) They were written there from ( at the time of ) the foundation of the world.

That is an assumption. Which Scripture is actually silent.

3) There are people whose names were not written in the Book of Life.

Meaning what? Never? Not written at sometime from? [Having been blotted out?]

4) Therefore, those whose names were written in the Book of Life shall not worship the beast, exactly as Matthew 24:24 tells us...

Not at issue.

 

[Dave G]

You are reading into those texts what they do not say.

I am understanding, from a great many passages, whose names were written and why they were written.
In other words, I'm reading it out of the Bible, not into it.

As believers in Jesus Christ, we are to get our answers from His word and only His word, are we not?
That is where I found the answers that I've given.

Those texts do not say when or why names are written in the book.

When = From the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).
"From" meaning:

• indicating the date at which something was created.
  "a document dating from the thirteenth century"

Why = Because the Lord decided to write them there.

It's exactly the same with salvation:

Why do people believe on Christ? Because it was given to them to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ) and because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )...
Because they were appointed to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ).

When did God choose them in Christ? Before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
Why does He choose one and not another to salvation?
That is what I do not know, sir, except that He just does.

But the information for when and why names were written in the Book of Life is right on the pages.
The Bible itself gives us the answers that God has given to us on the subject.

That said, I'm not going to participate in a debate ( or worse, an argument ) with you, my friend.
I see what I see when I read the Scriptures for myself, and I've given you those answers from their related passages.


I wish you well, and God's blessings upon your continuing studies of His word.

 

[37818]

Revelation 17:8.

Does not explain when or why names were placed in the book.

Because God decided to do it.
Isn't that enough?

That is not at issue.
* The first reference Exodus 32:31. Names are already in the book.
* Revelation 20:15 tells us those who perish do not have their names in the book.
* Revelation 3:5 gives a promise to never have a name removed.

 

[37818]

Respectfully and from what I can see of your replies, I infer that you said it was not His Son's book.
Scripture says that it is.

Was not at issue.

That the book is God's book and the Lamb's book is not at issue.

I am understanding, from a great many passages, whose names were written and why they were written.

Ok. You are giving your interpertation.

 

[37818]

When = From the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).

That passage only explains when the names are not written in the book. "From" is some time in time, as used in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26. Do you not understand this?

Why = Because the Lord decided to write them.

Revelation 17:8 explains no such thing. Though you interpert it to do so.

 

[37818]

But the information for when and why names were written in the Book of Life is right on the pages.

You are interperting it to have such meaning. Needs to be explained. Even if we cannot agree. And why we do not argee needs to be understood, if either of us are to be able to change our minds on a matter. And if not one should know why not.
Those who are saved before the Judgement have their names kept in the book of life. I am sure we agree on this.

The need for the new birth is explained by Jesus.
Matthew 18:3.
Mark 10:15.
Luke 18:17.
And to Nicodemus in John 3:3.
Notice Nicodemus' question fits both explanations, John 3:4.
And so little childeren's names, should they die as such, are in the book, Luke 18:16, Revelation 20:15.

 

[AustinC]

Another place of Scripture they allege against the immutability of God's decrees is that in Exodus 32:32, where Moses prays that if God would not forgive the sins of the people He should "blot out his name out of his book. And the Lord said unto him, 'Whoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out My book' " (Exodus 32:33). Now, they say, if the names of those who are written in God's book of life may be blotted out, then the decrees of God are changeable. So it is said, "that if any man shall take from the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life" (Revelation 22:19).

I shall answer this objection very briefly. Divines observe that there are several sorts of books attributed to God in Scripture: There is a book of providence: "In Thy book were all my members written" (Psalm 139:16), that is, the book of God's providence. There is a book of God's judgment: "And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God, and the books were opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books" (Revelation 20:12). When Christ shall come to judgment, there shall be a great book of accounts opened wherein all things that are done here upon the earth are recorded. There is a book of life, wherein when any man's name is once written it can never be blotted out again. But the book of life mentioned in Scripture has a double significance. Sometimes by the book of life is meant the eternal decree and purpose of God touching those who shall be saved by Him; and in this sense it is to be taken: in "whose names are in the book of life" (Philippians 4:3). And so "rejoice because your names are written in the book of life" (Luke 10:20). And ordinarily, in the New Testament, the book of life is to be taken for the eternal decree and purpose of God touching those who shall be saved.

There is also a book of life in Scripture which is to be taken not for the eternal decree of God, but for the providences of God, and the special care and preservation of God over His church, the preserving of His people under the wings of His providence. This is called the book of life as in, "whosoever hath sinned against Me, Him will I blot out of My book" (Exodus 32:33); that is, "That man who shall go on in sin perniciously, obstinately, and presumptuously, I will blot his name out of My book"; that is, "I will cast him out of My protection and providence. He shall be an excommunicated man." And in this sense it is taken by Moses when he desired God to blot his name out of His book.

So says God in Ezekiel, "My hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel" (Ezekiel 13:9), which is as if He had said, "They shall not be written in the book of life." In this sense, this is to be excommunicated out of the church.

I shall confirm this doctrine to you further by demonstrating that the decrees of God are unchangeable and irrevocable. For were it otherwise. God must be a mutable God, which is directly contrary to what the Scripture affirms of Him, namely that with Him "there is no variableness, nor shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

Jesus Christ (may I say it with reverence) would be a liar and falsify His word if this were not true. For He says, "I give unto My sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand" (John 10:28). Christ would not be as good as His word if any of these who are given Him by His Father should be lost, or any of those who are appointed to salvation should come short of it.

If the decrees of God were mutable, then Paul's golden chain in Romans 8:30 would be broken; "Whom He did predestinate them also called, and whom He called, them He also justified, and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Predestination | Monergism

 

[SavedByGrace]

I shall answer this objection very briefly. Divines observe that there are several sorts of books attributed to God in Scripture

and WHO says that there are many Books, and that they don't all refer to the ONE Book? "Divines" may observe, but they need to produce Scripture evidence!