All LS Discussions and Debates

[Lou Martuneac]

As quoted in the other thread, this unnecessary add-on only looks like you are demeaning him and his work.

Sorry DHK that will NOT do.

You have inferred I attacked the man John MacArthur. Show me any statement I posted at BB that calls into question MacArthur's character or motives, but you can't do that; can you?

MacArthur's interpretation of the Gospel in under scrutiny, and has been for over two decades by men around the globe. The man or his character are NOT under scrutiny and I would rebuke any man who attacks his character.

Now, either prove I have attacked JM's character, demeaned him personally or called his motives into question- or do the right thing and retract your accusation that I attacked him.


LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

This "name" apparently first was coined in 1959 during the "Eternity" 'debate' between Dr. Everett F. Harrison and Dr. John R. W. Stott.

Ed

This is correct.

The theology known today as Lordship Salvation was previously known by other titles such as Mastery, Commitment, or Discipleship Salvation. The term Lordship Salvation has come to identify the particular view of what some believe is the way a man must respond to God in order to be born again.

Most recently Dr. J. B. Hixson has referred to LS as the “Performance Gospel.”


LM

 

[Lukasaurus]

But don't you know Skypair, if you aren't a calvinist, you are an arminian, and teach or believe every heresy under the sun!

EDIT:

1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How does this teach that true believers will persevere? I would say it says that God confirms us and keeps us saved.

I love it how people do that sometimes. Post a quip, quote a verse, but leave the verse out, hoping no one will look it up. I'm guilty of it too

 

[annsni]

Lou,

You have multiple threads on this same topic. I will be merging them all into one thread. Do not keep spamming this forum with multiple threads on the same basic topic.

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator

THANK YOU!!!! :thumbs:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

So, Lordship Salvation teaches that "Repentance" is a change of mind/heart. If anyone says something else, they are lying, and INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting the position.

These are quotes by a Lordship advocate, NOT John MacArthur.

Lordship (Salvation) sees repentance as more than just a change in dependence. It is also a change of allegiance. It includes a willingness to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ…. Lordship Salvation defines sin as rebellion or ‘lawlessness’ (which is how 1 John 3:4 defines it). To turn from (or forsake) one’s rebellion is (by definition) to begin submitting.

If I truly hate my sinfulness, and am broken over it, I will be simultaneously inclined to stop doing it. And as I earlier pointed out, the inclination (or desire or willingness) to stop sinning is the inclination to start obeying. And an inclination to start obeying is a change of allegiance (from self to God).

According to Havensdad it that man is lying and misrepresenting the position?


LM

 

[Lukasaurus]

Havensdad,

I see you are fighting against what you call "Easy believism".

Would I be correct in assuming that you would think that easy believism (I love that term), is akin to "quick prayerism".

In other words, all the sinner has to do to be saved is hear a 30 second gospel presentation and pray a prayer.

What I see being presented here is a caricature. LS advocates always use examples like this "joe was lead and prayed a prayer, never changed his life, never had any change, and thinks he is saved because he prayed a prayer". Well, he isn't. Just because he prayed a prayer, unless he believed the one he was praying to, it makes no difference.

It's about belief. Simple belief in Christ.

"Easy Believism" is not the same as "Quick Prayerism".

 

[donnA]

Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6)

I woulld tend to say, if a heart is against Jesus, eternal life has not been bestowed on them. No heart indwelt by the Holy Spirit can say that Jesus isn't their Lord, the Holy Spirit in us causes us to want to be obedient to Christ, which means He is our Lord because we desire to live His way, to obey Him. This is part of being a new person is.

 

[skypair]

...that EVERYTHING proclaimed after Jesus and the 12 apostles is HEARSAY THEOLOGY?? Some good -- some bad, but HEARSAY! We told this to the Catholics. Can we not tell it to ourselves?? Hearsay is NOT ADMISSIBLE in the "court" of OUR FAITH!!

[Sky, I am so sorry. I meant to reply to your post by quoting it. However, I must have hit the "edit button." Then thinking I was just replying, I deleted the parts I was not responding to, and added my reply. Please forgive me. And feel free to PM me with any text that you would like for me to re-enter here. Bible-boy, Forum Moderator]

 

[Havensdad]

These are quotes by a Lordship advocate, NOT John MacArthur.

They are direct quotes from John Macarthur's Church, and I have confirmed this has been signed off on by John Macarthur himself.

According to Havensdad it that man is lying and misrepresenting the position?


LM

Lets look at the quotes for a minute...

Lordship (Salvation) sees repentance as more than just a change in dependence. It is also a change of allegiance. It includes a willingness to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ…. Lordship Salvation defines sin as rebellion or ‘lawlessness’ (which is how 1 John 3:4 defines it). To turn from (or forsake) one’s rebellion is (by definition) to begin submitting.

Definition: Submission:

to yield to the action, control, power, etc. of another or others; also, to subject or allow to be subjected to treatment, analysis, etc. of some sort: often used reflexively

So basically, "submitting" is "giving up". "Giving up" is the opposite of working for something. If I am working for a new car, and I "give up", that means I am no longer working.

So, let me ask you Lou: is the kind of faith that YOU believe in, the kind where you can say "Jesus, I believe in you, but I am going to keep doing what I want, cause I don't care what you think".

That is what you are implying.

If I truly hate my sinfulness, and am broken over it, I will be simultaneously inclined to stop doing it. And as I earlier pointed out, the inclination (or desire or willingness) to stop sinning is the inclination to start obeying. And an inclination to start obeying is a change of allegiance (from self to God).

What is wrong with this? A "change of allegiance" is a change of faith....if I have faith in the U.S. government, and I "change my allegiance" to Mexico......

I am sure you see where I am going. You are deliberately twisting things, in order to bring about contention.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

To All:

Havensdad attempts to disguise the dilemma he created for himself. He posted,

So, Lordship Salvation teaches that "Repentance" is a change of mind/heart. If anyone says something else, they are lying, and INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting the position.

When shown a definition for repentance, from a well-known LS advocate, that does NOT mirror what he posted from the GTY site, he has a problem he created for himself.

You see, anyone who knows how LS defines repentance understands that the LS advocate demands the lost man have the intention to turn from committing sin. The quotes I provided for the LS definition of repentance includes a lost man's commitment to, "turn from (or forsake) one’s rebellion is (by definition) to begin submitting...to stop sinning is the inclination to start obeying." Stop sinning and start obeying is that LS man's definition of repentance, which is not the same as what HD posted.

So, by HD's mandate, the quotations are a lie and misrepresentation of LS.

As usual we have the shrill cry of "twisting things," (and all the usual mantra) even in the face of clear, incontrovertible evidence that upsets his effort to codify what he thinks all LS advocates believe/teach on repentance.

There is one other question to be asked. HD claims to know the source of the quotations. If he knows who posted those definitions of LS's repentance why doesn't he name that source? BTW, if these quotations are verified as having originated with a man that is not the one who posted them, the man who posted them may have plagiarized the quotations.

In any event, these quotations are not consistent with HD's mandated (OFFICIAL) LS definition of repentance. So, he is left with a dilemma: Which is the lie and which is the true definition of Lordship Salvation's repentance?


LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

SkyPair:

I appreciate your concern, but the heresy of Lordship Salvation has been clearly identified for decades. There is no talking past one another, the issue is clear.

It is treason against the Lord Jesus Christ to work in any cooperative effort with the teachers of a false gospel. Lordship Salvation is false through the additions; the Crossless gospel is false by subtraction.

Both are radical departures from the biblical plan of salvation, both errors must be rejected, fellowship withdrawn and its advocates marked so that they are avoided especially by the unsuspecting. (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15)


LM

 

[Rippon]

SkyPair:

I appreciate your concern, but the heresy of Lordship Salvation has been clearly identified for decades. There is no talking past one another, the issue is clear.

It is treason against the Lord Jesus Christ to work in any cooperative effort with the teachers of a false gospel. Lordship Salvation is false through the additions; the Crossless gospel is false by subtraction.

Both are radical departures from the biblical plan of salvation, both errors must be rejected, fellowship withdrawn and its advocates marked so that they are avoided especially by the unsuspecting. (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15)


LM

More bile from you Lou? LS is "heresy","treason against the Lord Jesus Christ", a radical departure from the biblical plan of salvation?!

Better get another hobby quickly.

 

[Havensdad]

SkyPair:

I appreciate your concern, but the heresy of Lordship Salvation has been clearly identified for decades. There is no talking past one another, the issue is clear.

It is treason against the Lord Jesus Christ to work in any cooperative effort with the teachers of a false gospel. Lordship Salvation is false through the additions; the Crossless gospel is false by subtraction.

Both are radical departures from the biblical plan of salvation, both errors must be rejected, fellowship withdrawn and its advocates marked so that they are avoided especially by the unsuspecting. (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15)


LM

As long as Lou and his ilk are allowed to continue to pervert another Christians writings, and misrepresent him, for the sole purpose of selling and promoting his book, their will not be unity.

 

[Havensdad]

More bile from you Lou? LS is "heresy","treason against the Lord Jesus Christ", a radical departure from the biblical plan of salvation?!

Better get another hobby quickly.

It seems that Satan and His followers cannot stand the spread of the Biblical gospel by the men of God who support it and proclaim it (John Macarthur, John Piper, Ray Comfort (for his evangelistic efforts...very successful ones!) and thousands of pastors around the world), so he influences people like Lou to attack and demean them, to keep people from listening to them and being saved.

Your doing your job well, Lou. Keep it up. I bet you can make at least 10,000 people ignore these harbingers of God's word, and cause them to plunge into hell.

 

[Rippon]

James,

In this thread, "Lordship" has become another nuanced word meaning "if I do not become Jesus' disciple, I have not been saved." I've even heard this logic used by some of the Reform persuasion to try to prove the Judas Escariot WAS saved and just made a "incey wincey mistake" in betraying Jesus!

Only an ardent anti-Calvinist such as yourself could have made up such bunk.Who,specifically,from the "Reformed persuasion" ever insisted that Judas Escariot was saved?If you can't name em',don't claim em'.

 

[Bible-boy]

We already have had multiple threads on this topic that have been merged into one common thread. This one will likewise be merged into that common thread by 11:00 PM EST tonight. Please do not keep starting new thread on this same basic topic no matter which side of the debate you are on.

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator

 

[Havensdad]

To All:

Havensdad attempts to disguise the dilemma he created for himself. He posted,
When shown a definition for repentance, from a well-known LS advocate, that does NOT mirror what he posted from the GTY site, he has a problem he created for himself.

Not so at all. Lou has run into a problem, and is now trying to turn a difference of explanation, that describes the same thing, into some kind of division, for the sole purpose of bashing and maligning people. Rather than simply trying to understand a Christian brother, He CONTINUALLY attempts to paint them in the worst possible light. I was simply demonstrating how the two posts mesh perfectly. They do.

You see, anyone who knows how LS defines repentance understands that the LS advocate demands the lost man have the intention to turn from committing sin. The quotes I provided for the LS definition of repentance includes a lost man's commitment to, "turn from (or forsake) one’s rebellion is (by definition) to begin submitting...to stop sinning is the inclination to start obeying." Stop sinning and start obeying is that LS man's definition of repentance, which is not the same as what HD posted.

Ummm> "inclination to start obeying"> THAT IS A CHANGE OF MIND! Repentance> I wanted to sin, now I don't. Change of mind. I wanted to live in disobedience to God, now I don't. I changed my mind. Repentance. DUH> Is this REALLY that confusing to you?

So, by HD's mandate, the quotations are a lie and misrepresentation of LS.

As anyone with two brain cells can see, this is simply another misdirection by Lou, because he cannot refute what has been put before him.

As usual we have the shrill cry of "twisting things," (and all the usual mantra) even in the face of clear, incontrovertible evidence that upsets his effort to codify what he thinks all LS advocates believe/teach on repentance.

As usual, we have Lou using words like "incontrovertible evidence", without actually providing any!!:laugh:

There is one other question to be asked. HD claims to know the source of the quotations. If he knows who posted those definitions of LS's repentance why doesn't he name that source? BTW, if these quotations are verified as having originated with a man that is not the one who posted them, the man who posted them may have plagiarized the quotations.

What quotes are you referencing? My initial post of this thread? I have no problem listing the source> I believe I already did so. It is an excerpt of Grace Community Churches "Doctrinal Distinctives", compiled by the staff of Grace Community church, from the writings of John Macarthur himself, under the supervision of John Macarthur.

In regards to your quotes, I believe they are from Nathan Busenitz.

In any event, these quotations are not consistent with HD's mandated (OFFICIAL) LS definition of repentance. So, he is left with a dilemma: Which is the lie and which is the true definition of Lordship Salvation's repentance?


LM

Lets see. "inclination" to "start obeying"....

What is the definition of "inclination"?

"an attitude of mind especially one that favors one alternative over others"

SOOOOOOOOO.....If you were in a lifestyle of rebellion against God, and you had a "inclination of rebellion", and your mind "changed", what would your "inclination" be then?

An "inclination" to "start obeying". No "works" involved. Just a change of mind: the Biblical definition of repentance..

NOW> I have continually responded to you. Please answer the ONE question, that I have CONTINUALLY asked without an answer from you:

When Paul said:

We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.

WAS Paul preaching works salvation? Because this is the SAME thing Macarthur preaches, Ray Comfort preaches, John Piper preaches, etc. etc.

 

[EdSutton]

Meritous and Non-meritous works?

If non-meritous works are required for salvation, then they are still works. It's double talk:

It's basically saying "These works don't contribute to your salvation, but they are required, and if you don't do them, you aren't saved".

Bingo! :thumbs:

He's got it.

Give that man the kewpie doll.

Ed

 

[sag38]

Ed, what is a kewpie doll?

 

[EdSutton]

As long as Lou and his ilk are allowed to continue to pervert another Christians writings, and misrepresent him, for the sole purpose of selling and promoting his book, their will not be unity.

Dictionary definition of ad hominem, here.

Ed