All LS Discussions and Debates

[EdSutton]

Meritous and Non-meritous works?

If non-meritous works are required for salvation, then they are still works. It's double talk:

It's basically saying "These works don't contribute to your salvation, but they are required, and if you don't do them, you aren't saved".

I'm gonna' say something else about this post.

The 'bolded' part of your post is the effective claim of several posters who are advocates of "Lordship Salvation", who have posted on this board, and is almost identical to what the late Dr. John Gerstner, said, which I have quoted three times on the BB, including less than 24 hrs. ago, in post #155 on this thread.

And I do not accept this teaching, at all, which no doubt, comes as a great surprise to some.

NOT!

Ed

 

[webdog]

Havensdad, do you agree with the following?

"You have offended God's holiness and broken His laws! You know what is wrong by natural instinct, "the law having been written in your heart" yet you chose to rebel against the conscience God gave you. You are guilty, guilty, guilty! You are sinful before Him and deserving of eternal damnation. You must be punished...

But Good News, my friend! There's hope! Jesus took the punishment! The gospel is simply this-
Jesus, the Lamb of God took upon Himself your debt of sin. He paid for it in full. You can be forgiven and have fellowship with the Holy God that you once offended with your sin.
However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance. "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17,). Put your faith in His grace to keep you from falling. He will keep you!


It is not enough to just "say a little prayer'. Many preachers will stand in judgment for leading so many in a false conversion. How many souls are in hell right now who thought they were alright because the preacher didn't want to scare them away with a challenge and a call to a total commitment to Christ? I will not tell you a cheap and easy gospel message. Jesus requires you to give your ALL!

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33). "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy strength, and with ALL thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27).


​

Many of you have hardened your heart to God and the gospel. You have heard the preaching of Jesus many times before. But you've never made a total commitment to follow Jesus. You do not care that He died for you. You are in bitterness of soul and "nigh unto cursing." I warn you! Do not harden your heart to God's love and mercy! There is no other choice left to you but His wrath and indignation! I plead with you to fall on the Rock and be broken before the rock falls on you and you are crushed to powder! (see Matthew 21:44). This is a very serious decision you must make. Your eternal destiny depends upon it!
On Judgment day you will be without excuse. You have been warned of the Day of the Lord and told the Good News to avoid God's wrath. Jesus loves you... enough to warn you and give you a way out. Will you choose His loving way or go your own way to destruction? The ball is in your court now. What will you do?"

 

[MB]

Ed:

Lordship Salvation (LS) fails the test of Scripture, unless we accept the LS advocates attempts to force Scripture into conformity with LS. Therefore, they have to resort to the demonization of any who have biblically resisted the teaching of LS. These men at BB are not the first and will not be the last to use ad hominem to "demonize" any who reject the heretical, works based Lordship Salvation.

I admit that I haven't read Mac Authur's books. However I do believe that a commitment is necessary. The commitment being the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord of your life. That is Lord ship Salvation.
Simply if Christ isn't the Lord of our life, then we aren't saved. I'd like to know what you believe the process of Salvation is?

For LS believing in whom Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation does NOT fully define the faith that saves.

It doesn't ? If not, please by all means, why don't you define it for us?

LS insists belief MUST be accompanied by a commitment to behavior that is expected of a Christian.

Christ never said this;
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
God said;
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Of course we should never commit to putting evil sin away.
Your claim is that this commitment is needed for Salvation by LS advocates. And you don't believe in true repentance because that is what it is.
There is no Salvation for the proud. The proud are those who refuse to give up their sinfull lives. They want to take darkness to Heaven with them.:laugh:

LS, therefore, conditions salvation on the lost man's promise to perform, i.e. his promise to forsake (committing) sin and to start obeying. This is the works-based, non-saving teaching of Lordship Salvation.


LM

How so when we are still in our sins when we are saved. No man cleans himself up first. God cleans the man up and says sin no more.
Have you been convicted of your sins? If so ever wonder why? Do you think it might be because God doesn't approve of sin. That it's His will that you not do it anymore.
You can't take darkness into the light because the two are incompatable. The light destroy's the darkness.
I find it interesting that you never seem to mention just what it is you believe. Maybe I just missed it!
MB

 

[EdSutton]

Exactly, and since regeneration happens at the moment of faith in Christ, and not before, the requirements of Mr. Goodman and Mr. MacArthur are dependant on a false presupposition of pre faith regeneration.

Bingo!, again.

But I'm fast running out of kewpie dolls!

Ed

 

[webdog]

That's ok...I still have the last one you sent :laugh:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

LS: Perform to Become a Christian

But these here are not the teachers, Lou. Some, as you know, haven't even read the books you critique. Some have yet to piece together the original framework much less the foundation which is Calvinism.

Then they should not be defending LS, demonizing, by personal ad hominem attacks those who reject LS on biblical grounds and personally advocating LS when they do not understand it in the first place; wouldn't you agree?

I believe Lordship is an instance where they try to make discipleship salvific.

Well said- And this is why LS as formerly known as Discipleship Salvation. LS requires an upfront commitment to the works of discipleship FOR the reception of eternal life.

The problem many of these LS sympathizers have comes from what little they have gleaned and been exposed to about LS. LS blends and confuses the doctrine of discipleship to the point where they are convinced that discipleship is the way to eternal salvation.

IMO, the Bible teaches discipleship is the natural result of and should follow salvation. LS teachers have it backwards, they condition salvation on a commitment by a lost man to perform as a disciple of Christ to become a Christian. This is conditioning the free gift of God on man’s promise to do the works of a Christian. That screams works!


LM

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Years ago, I did read John MacArthur Jr's book "The Gospel According to Jesus". It is very good book.

There is no reason why that book should be heresy or false doctrine. He just bring up from many Scriptures with truth.

That book is very clearly speak against "Easy Believism". Although, he is securist, (he believes in security salvation - OSAS).

The basic thing that, MANY Christians like you and me, we all agree that Jesus IS the 100% Lord. No problem.

But, when we go soul winning to people, and even also to witness deaf people too. We have to careful what to saying toward them. We should not use "theology" or "Doctrine" to lost people. Many deaf people have no idea what "Lord" means. But, we have to focus on Jesus Christ to people, who is Jesus. More importantly, they need to know and understand who is Jesus, why does he came to earth, why does he have to died on the cross? Why does he got risen, etc. That is the main focus is GOSPEL.

I notice many soul winners are lack of telling people to repent of sins, forsake sins, and turn to Jesus, ask for forgive. They always telliong them, to "believe" or "accept" Jesus for salvation. That's it. That is serious error method of evangelism to lost people.

Bible commands ALL people to repent of sins for salvation, not just only "Believe" on Jesus. Salvation requires for believe, repent, confess, forsake sins, baptize, and also to FOLLOW Christ, then have eternal life. These are classical Biblcal teachings.

Let me tell you something on John 10:27-29. Many baptists who are securists often emphasis on John 10:28-29 prove that we cannot lose our salvation, because Christ have the power to hold our salvation when once after we believed and accepted Him as personal saviour.

But, they left verse 27 out.

The context of verse 27-29 clearly telling us, Christ's promise to us, if ANYONE HEAR and FOLLOW, therefore, we are hold in Christ's power of our salvation, long as we are secured in Christ.

BUT, IF we stopped listening and follow Christ in the midst of our spiritual life, then Christ would not hold us afterward, He would loose us out of his hand just like prodigal son of Luke 15:11-32.

Matt. 24:13 commands us that we ought to endure our faith till our death, then we shall be saved. Or, otherwise, if we quit in midst of opur life, then we shall not be saved at the END-means we might be end up in hell, if we quit and returns to sins again.

Bible is very clear teaching that our security salvation is conditional with "IF"'s.

I believe Lordship Salvation is not heresy or heretic or false doctrine. It is classical biblical teaching according to the Scriptures saying so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lou,

Well, how about rich ruler met Jesus? Rich man asked Christ, what he shall do to receive eternal life? Remember, that man was NOT a Christian, and he was lost(not saved). He wanted to know, how can he have eternal life. To receive eternal life is a matter of salvation issue. Christ told him, if he wants to follow Him, then, he have to yield or give his posession things to poor people, THEN come and to follow Him. Christ was not talking about "good works". Christ was testing on rich man's FAITH. Rich man was bitter or disappoint with Christ's recommend. He was worry over his earthly things, he doesn't want to lose his earthly things. He turned away from Christ, because he have NO faith on Christ. Obivously, that rich man is already innhell, because of NOT trust or have faith on jesus' recommend.

See? My point.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Webdog,

I did read Mr. Goodman's teaching & MacArthur's teaching. Both are almost same things. I agree with both.

True salvation is 100% commiment to Christ, not just 'believed' or 'accepted'. Salvation requires of our life to be dedciated 100 completely to Christ of Romans 12:1-2.

I have seen so MANY Christians are already back to world, thought they are already saved, because of what soul winners have told them that they are "already saved". But, soul winners misleading them in the wrong direction of salvation - "Easy Believism".

Many Christians were did actual already repent of sins, did accepted Christ, did follow Christ in their beginning of Christian life. But, afterward they stopped follow Christ, return to world again, so therefore, they are no longer hold in Christ's hand(John 10:27-29).

Salvation is conditional that we must meet - believe, accept, repent, confession, baptize, and to FOLLOW Christ. If we don't do these, then we cannot have eternal life at end - Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

I fear that, teaching of "Once Saved Always Saved" is a deadly dangerous doctrine among baptists and any religions today.

Salvation is commitment life toward Christ all life to death, not just one time event of "believed" or "accepted" Christ only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Havensdad]

Havensdad, do you agree with the following?

No. This is not "Lordship Salvation". This is one mans beliefs. "Lordship Salvation" is a base set of doctrine> others add on to it, but that does not mean there beliefs are the same, bro. Anymore than it would be fair for me to lump you in with Zane Hodges. Let me demonstrate...

"You have offended God's holiness and broken His laws! You know what is wrong by natural instinct, "the law having been written in your heart" yet you chose to rebel against the conscience God gave you. You are guilty, guilty, guilty! You are sinful before Him and deserving of eternal damnation. You must be punished...

I COMPLETELY agree with this part. In fact, I don't think it is strong enough...

But Good News, my friend! There's hope! Jesus took the punishment! The gospel is simply this-
Jesus, the Lamb of God took upon Himself your debt of sin. He paid for it in full. You can be forgiven and have fellowship with the Holy God that you once offended with your sin.

I agree with this part.

However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance. "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17,). Put your faith in His grace to keep you from falling. He will keep you!

"Commitment" is the wrong word. I do not agree that there this is some kind of promise, like "God if you save me, I promise to do better". That is definitely false.

However, there is a general turning from sin. It is impossible turn to God, unless you turn AWAY from sin first. The focus of "God" and "sin"are in opposite directions, so to speak.

For instance, if you say "Jesus save me", and then kneel down in the next breath at a Buddha statue, you have not repented and put your trust in Christ. In order to turn TO Christ, you must turn FROM Buddha. This thing applies across the board, to whatever the sin/controlling factor might be.

It is not enough to just "say a little prayer'.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this statement. There are probably millions around the world, who have said the sinners prayer with their lips, but have not truly been born again.

Many preachers will stand in judgment for leading so many in a false conversion. How many souls are in hell right now who thought they were alright because the preacher didn't want to scare them away with a challenge and a call to a total commitment to Christ? I will not tell you a cheap and easy gospel message. Jesus requires you to give your ALL!

I agree with this, to a degree. I believe it is more of "willing" to give it all, not necessarily requiring some kind of works. This is an attitude, a mental and heartfelt contrition leading to repentance. A change of mind, where one desires to give all for Christ. A person certainly cannot say "Jesus, I want to go to heaven, but I want to live in constant rebellion to you", and be saved. That is not found anywhere in scripture

I also agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment expressed, that Preachers should never give a person false assurance. A person who is saved, but has fallen into sin, is not SUPPOSED to have assurance. He is supposed to feel guilty. This is conviction brought on by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that confirms our position before God: it is not the place of the preacher.

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33). "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy strength, and with ALL thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27).

Obviously, this is a salvific message. But the question one must ask themselves is, what is it that Jesus is saying? Did the Apostles give up everything? No. They were wearing clothes. At least two of them had swords. They had food.

Again, I think this is an attitude. I sold my house, and all my belongings, to follow Christ. BUT> I still have a travel trailer. I still have a truck. But if Christ told me "Burn them", I would. I think that is what Christ is getting at here, or else non one could be a disciple unless they ran around naked.

Many of you have hardened your heart to God and the gospel. You have heard the preaching of Jesus many times before. But you've never made a total commitment to follow Jesus. You do not care that He died for you. You are in bitterness of soul and "nigh unto cursing." I warn you! Do not harden your heart to God's love and mercy! There is no other choice left to you but His wrath and indignation! I plead with you to fall on the Rock and be broken before the rock falls on you and you are crushed to powder! (see Matthew 21:44). This is a very serious decision you must make. Your eternal destiny depends upon it!
On Judgment day you will be without excuse. You have been warned of the Day of the Lord and told the Good News to avoid God's wrath. Jesus loves you... enough to warn you and give you a way out. Will you choose His loving way or go your own way to destruction? The ball is in your court now. What will you do?"

Again, I agree with this, to a degree, but reject the idea of "commitment". I again think it is a brokeness of heart, a desire to follow Christ and change of mind about direction (repentance).

Webdog> I appreciate you trying to understand what I believe, instead of slapping labels on me, and grouping me in with others. Thank you.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Exactly, and since regeneration happens at the moment of faith in Christ, and not before, the requirements of Mr. Goodman and Mr. MacArthur are dependant on a false presupposition of pre faith regeneration.

Well done, Mr. Webdog. Succinct and right on target.

The ironic part is that they still call on this alleged regenerated man to make a commitment to behave as a disciple FOR salvation, when according to their system he has already become a born again disciple of Christ.


Lou

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Webdog,

I did read Mr. Goodman's teaching & MacArthur's teaching. Both are almost same things. I agree with both.

True salvation is 100% commiment to Christ, not just 'believed' or 'accepted'. Salvation requires of our life to be dedciated 100 completely to Christ of Romans 12:1-2.

I have seen so MANY Christians are already back to world, thought they are already saved, because of what soul winners have told them that they are "already saved". But, soul winners misleading them in the wrong direction of salvation - "Easy Believism".

Many Christians were did actual already repent of sins, did accepted Christ, did follow Christ in their beginning of Christian life. But, afterward they stopped follow Christ, return to world again, so therefore, they are no longer hold in Christ's hand(John 10:27-29).

Salvation is conditional that we must meet - believe, accept, repent, confession, baptize, and to FOLLOW Christ. If we don't do these, then we cannot have eternal life at end - Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

I fear that, teaching of "Once Saved Always Saved" is a deadly dangerous doctrine among baptists and any religions today.

Salvation is commitment life toward Christ all life to death, not just one time event of "believed" or "accepted" Christ only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPostTrib:

I only reply to this to say that your comments above are a sad example of the tragic results of the teaching of the works based, man centered Lordship Salvation that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).


LM

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lou,

I ask you, please can you definition the meaning of "faith", what it means? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What's the difference between LS and the Holiness movement?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

What is the "Holiness Movement"?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

If this is true, what shall I tell my children when they trusted Christ at the age of seven or twelve. Forsake all that they have? Forsake their mother, father, brothers, sisters, deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Christ? Christ never put age limits on those that could be saved.

I have never seen this question adequately answered by those in favor of LS.
Does a proponent of LS have an answer for it?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

What if suppose a Jewish boy just converted became Christian, and telling to his Jewish parents, that he become Christian. Then, Jewish parents become very angry and upset then kick their son out of family. Will a Jewish boy remain as Christian, while he is not invlove with his family as Jewish tradtion anymore? Yes. Ok, what if suppose after Jewish boy being kicked out of family, then he realized that he feels lost, and decide not want to follow Jesus anymore, want to return his family again to keep Judaism (Jewish religion) of family tradtion? Is he remain Christian afterward? No.

The point is, which we rather to put first - Jesus or family? If we put family first, then Jesus becomes unworthy to us, that means we are not Christ's disciples.

I have heard many cases of Jews boys and girls who actual become Christian, got kicked out of their Jewish family.

So, the point is, if suppose, Jew boy telling his family, that he is Christian, and got kicked out of his family, will he stay follow Christ afteward? Or, he decides change mind want to return Jewish family again and keep family tradition than follow Jesus, is he still a disciple or follower of Christ afterward?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[MB]

Then they should not be defending LS, demonizing, by personal ad hominem attacks those who reject LS on biblical grounds and personally advocating LS when they do not understand it in the first place; wouldn't you agree?

Well said- And this is why LS as formerly known as Discipleship Salvation. LS requires an upfront commitment to the works of discipleship FOR the reception of eternal life.

The problem many of these LS sympathizers have comes from what little they have gleaned and been exposed to about LS. LS blends and confuses the doctrine of discipleship to the point where they are convinced that discipleship is the way to eternal salvation.

IMO, the Bible teaches discipleship is the natural result of and should follow salvation. LS teachers have it backwards, they condition salvation on a commitment by a lost man to perform as a disciple of Christ to become a Christian. This is conditioning the free gift of God on man’s promise to do the works of a Christian. That screams works!


LM

You keep saying these things and you never answer my post addressed to you. Why won't you explain your view of how man obtains Salvation. I for one would really like to know.
MB

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Prove it or Retract

I have never seen this question adequately answered by those in favor of LS. Does a proponent of LS have an answer for it?

This week at BB you claimed that I have attacked John MacArthur.

I have repeatedly called on you to either:

1) Prove that I attacked JM’s character or person so that I can apologize for it, or…

2) Retract what I know to be a falsehood.

If you were not a moderator I would ignore it like I do when it comes from the LS sympathizers. However, because you are in an authority position, I am holding you accountable for perpetuating a blatant falsehood.

The teaching of JM and other LS advocates has been under scrutiny by me and several others at BB. At NO TIME and you know it have any of us attacked MacArthur’s character or motives.

Either prove I have attacked JM’s person or retract your reckless statement.


LM

 

[EdSutton]

Havensdad, do you agree with the following?

"You have offended God's holiness and broken His laws! You know what is wrong by natural instinct, "the law having been written in your heart" yet you chose to rebel against the conscience God gave you. You are guilty, guilty, guilty! You are sinful before Him and deserving of eternal damnation. You must be punished...

But Good News, my friend! There's hope! Jesus took the punishment! The gospel is simply this-
Jesus, the Lamb of God took upon Himself your debt of sin. He paid for it in full. You can be forgiven and have fellowship with the Holy God that you once offended with your sin.
However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance. "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17,). Put your faith in His grace to keep you from falling. He will keep you!


It is not enough to just "say a little prayer'. Many preachers will stand in judgment for leading so many in a false conversion. How many souls are in hell right now who thought they were alright because the preacher didn't want to scare them away with a challenge and a call to a total commitment to Christ? I will not tell you a cheap and easy gospel message. Jesus requires you to give your ALL!

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33). "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy strength, and with ALL thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27).


​

Many of you have hardened your heart to God and the gospel. You have heard the preaching of Jesus many times before. But you've never made a total commitment to follow Jesus. You do not care that He died for you. You are in bitterness of soul and "nigh unto cursing." I warn you! Do not harden your heart to God's love and mercy! There is no other choice left to you but His wrath and indignation! I plead with you to fall on the Rock and be broken before the rock falls on you and you are crushed to powder! (see Matthew 21:44). This is a very serious decision you must make. Your eternal destiny depends upon it!
On Judgment day you will be without excuse. You have been warned of the Day of the Lord and told the Good News to avoid God's wrath. Jesus loves you... enough to warn you and give you a way out. Will you choose His loving way or go your own way to destruction? The ball is in your court now. What will you do?"

I'm certainly not Havensdad, but may I say one thing?

Sure sounds like "Lordship salvation" a.k.a. "Discipleship Salvation" to me!

(Incidentally, I do know where the quote originated, FTR.)

Ed