All LS Discussions and Debates

[Lou Martuneac]

Grace vs. Legalism

I know right where you are coming from, bro.

The purpose of repentance toward God in conversion is the be declared to have the eternal, judicial righteousness of God in Christ, period! Spiritually, understanding nothing more than that (per 1Cor 2:1-6, 14), we can do nothing more than that!

skypair

Sky:

I have a great article for you to read. It was written by Pastro George Zeller. It is used by permission at my blog and in my book. The article touches on an element of your note above. Here is a sample:

Don’t confuse saving faith with that which saving faith ought to produce. Don’t confuse repentance with the fruits of repentance. Behavior and fruit are the evidences of saving faith but they are not the essence of saving faith. Don’t confuse the fruit with the root. Before you can “come after” Christ in discipleship (Luke 9:23; Matt. 11:29-30), you must “come unto” Christ for salvation (Matthew 11:28). Discipleship is not a requirement for salvation; discipleship is the obligation of every saved person.

Go to, The Relationship Between God's Grace & Lordship Legalism for the full article.

Kind regards,


Lou

 

[Thinkingstuff]

continuing with my thoughts on post #26. Salvations isn't one point in time it just starts there. Salvation continiues into eterninty. Why believe if you won't live rightly? I again assert that is not salvation. Salvation is everything associated with it not just one aspect. I believe that to be scriptural and how the apostles meant it.

 

[JustChristian]

continuing with my thoughts on post #26. Salvations isn't one point in time it just starts there. Salvation continiues into eterninty. Why believe if you won't live rightly? I again assert that is not salvation. Salvation is everything associated with it not just one aspect. I believe that to be scriptural and how the apostles meant it.

I agree. Jesus said come and follow me not believe what I say and then go back to your sinful life. I also believe that the Holy Spirit has given new insights into the Bible over the last two thousand years. God has answered prayers and performed miracles. God's love for His creation as well as His stern warning that we are destined for everlasting torment if we don't accept His Son as our LORD and Savior has continued. The story of God's relationship with man didn't end two thousand years ago. It just hasn't been written down.

 

[Havensdad]

I agree. Jesus said come and follow me not believe what I say and then go back to your sinful life. I also believe that the Holy Spirit has given new insights into the Bible over the last two thousand years. God has answered prayers and performed miracles. God's love for His creation as well as His stern warning that we are destined for everlasting torment if we don't accept His Son as our LORD and Savior has continued. The story of God's relationship with man didn't end two thousand years ago. It just hasn't been written down.

Nice to know I am not alone.

 

[webdog]

(The bolding is mine).
And it is a false accusation, as I have already explained to you.

You attack without even realizing it. You cannot see the forest for the trees.
Stand back a bit and look at what you are posting.
Take a look at this:

In essence you have called MacArthur, Piper, Chantry, Goodman and even Havensdad all heretics--those promoting a false, non saving message.

This is an attack. You have named people. You have told them that they are heretics spreading a false message that cannot save, and yet many of these men have ministries which are large and have reached out to hundreds if not thousands, bringing them to Christ. Something is wrong.
Your attacks are personal. They name the person; how can they be anything else but personal??

You need to take a deep breathe and stop.
Debate the doctrine not the person.
If you persist, I will simply close the thread completely

Provide where he called anyone a heretic, or recant it. As a moderator, you get away with this way too much, DHK. THIS is an attack and dishonest.

 

[webdog]

continuing with my thoughts on post #26. Salvations isn't one point in time it just starts there. Salvation continiues into eterninty. Why believe if you won't live rightly? I again assert that is not salvation. Salvation is everything associated with it not just one aspect. I believe that to be scriptural and how the apostles meant it.

Justification is a one point in time event. If it is not, you have a sanctification based justification which compromises grace. If living rightly is salvation, that is works based salvation.

 

[webdog]

Jesus said come and follow me not believe what I say and then go back to your sinful life.

I have not seen any non lordship advocate who doesn't agree with this. One cannot follow Christ without first being regenerated, which doesn't occur until we are "in" Christ through faith.

 

[Havensdad]

Provide where he called anyone a heretic, or recant it. As a moderator, you get away with this way too much, DHK. THIS is an attack and dishonest.

From Lou:

Men like MacArthur, Piper, Chantry, Goodman along with any man, including Havensdad, who perpetuates Lordship Salvation have adopted a false, non-saving message

Bolding and underlining mine. A "non saving message" is certainly a heresy.

BTW, by saying it is a non saving message, he is also saying those saved under Macarthur, Piper, Comforts, etc. ministry, are not saved.

ALSO> Paul preached the same thing I and others are preaching> so Paul was preaching a non saving message according to Him>..

"We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them."

Paul recognized a person could not turn to Christ in faith, without first turning away from sin and the world.

 

[Havensdad]

I have not seen any non lordship advocate who doesn't agree with this. One cannot follow Christ without first being regenerated, which doesn't occur until we are "in" Christ through faith.

No Lordship person says that following is a part of salvation. The problem is that non -Lordship people leave it open to possibility, that one can indeed simply take Jesus as a ticket to Heaven, and then go back to the same sinful lifestyle.

If Jesus says "follow me" and someone turns to follow, they have "faith" and are therefore saved by it. Just as the little girl/fire analogy I used earlier, and exactly as Paul says, here...

"We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. "

A turning from the world, TO God, is instrumental in salvation. The walk (works), which is not part of the turning (change of mind focus/repenting), will inevitably follow> not might.

 

[Bible-boy]

Since you all turned Sky's hearsay thread into a LS discussion/debate it has now been merged into this thread.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Changing the Terms of the Gospel

The evidence of Lordship Salvation’s works based message is overwhelming and incontrovertible. The facts are very clear and are found in the writing of various Lordship advocates.

LS conditions salvation on a lost man’s commitment to perform the "good works" (Eph. 2:10) of a born again disciple of Christ.

LS is a reaction to the obvious errors of the reductionist interpretation of the Gospel by men such as Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin and the Grace Evangelical Society. In each of his three editions of TGATJ, MacArthur targets the obvious errors of the so-called “Easy-Believism.”

The answer to reductionism is NOT Lordship’s additionism. The answer is not found in changing the terms of the Gospel, which is what Lordship Salvation has done to the Gospel.

The following by Dr. Ernest Pickering appears in his booklet that reviews the first edition of TGATJ.

John MacArthur is a sincere servant of the Lord, of that we have no doubt.... We believe in his advocacy of the so-called lordship salvation he is wrong. He desperately desires to see holiness, lasting fruit, and continuing faithfulness in the lives of Christian people. This reviewer and we believe all sincere church leaders desire the same.... But the remedy for this condition is not found in changing the terms of the gospel.

Dr. Charlie Bing, in his dissertation, Lordship Salvation: A Biblical Evaluation & Response, made a similar observation:

They are motivated by the worthy desire to see those who profess Christ go on to maturity and fruitfulness. Faced with the sad realities of inconsistent behavior, “backsliding,” and outright apostasy by some professing Christians, they have proposed a gospel that demands up front an exclusive commitment to an obedient lifestyle in hopes of minimizing these problems.

LM

 

[Havensdad]

Non Lordship proponents, only like quoting Paul when it supports there position, and ignore the fact that he preached exactly what the LS people get called heretics for:

"We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. "

Also, apparently some of them enjoy spamming forums with cut and paste responses.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Justification is a one point in time event. If it is not, you have a sanctification based justification which compromises grace. If living rightly is salvation, that is works based salvation.

Justification is just one aspect of Salvation. We are justified. Does it end there? No not really. Salvation is a whole package which includes justification. Why else are we to work out our salvation with fear and trembeling. The rewards are part of salvation as well, that we get to live rightly and have it count, that we get to be resurrected, that we get to go to heaven. Salvation is a package justification is just one aspect of salvation. For the beleiver it begins there. But salvation is a continuing process where we become more like Christ in thoughts and deeds. I believe this is how the apostles look at it and its the way to understand their writings. If not if salvation is limited to justification the writings of Paul make no sense. And you get arguments over a peice of the pie. Not the whole thing. And if you want to get down to it Salvation is entirely something God does from the begining of the world where in Revelation it states that the lamb was sacrificed at the begining. God justifies. Our participation begins with belief and we are justified with all the legal rights of being heirs to the kingdom but if we have rights and title what does it profit us if its not put into practice? We miss out on the privilages of being heirs if we do not. So God grants us the ability to continue becoming more like him by our endevors and to reap a reward for them. He gives those of us grace to live for him in this evil world and the reward of eternal life. All of that is salvation why are we saved if not to particpate in our salvation? Christ did the work we reap the rewards and I believe following him and living rightly is a reward. Paul even looked at suffering and martyrdom as a reward as well. Did he not say "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain"? So let us be justified and live our salvation (which is continuous). I guess I look at it like this a man is drowning and he is pulled out of the water (justified the first part of salvation) and everything after that is also salvation. That person will live as a survivor always after that. To be pulled out just to jump back into the water is ridiculous. But it seems to me thats what we're talking about. Justification is just the first part. Salvation is the entire package and the argument is whether we get to participate in works is like arguing over presents. Imagine a child saying "yeah I get I'm having a birthday but I really don't need or want presents." (a poor example to be sure but I hope I'm making my point).

 

[DHK]

Provide where he called anyone a heretic, or recant it. As a moderator, you get away with this way too much, DHK. THIS is an attack and dishonest.

In essence you have called MacArthur, Piper, Chantry, Goodman and even Havensdad all heretics--those promoting a false, non saving message.

That is what I said.

This is what the dictionary says about heresy and heretics:

Heresy:
1 a: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma
2 a: dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
b: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

Heretic: : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

Lou did not use the word "heresy" neither "heretic."

He said that MacArthur, Piper, Chantry, Goodman and Havensdad were promoting a "false, non-saving message."
Examining Piper's and MacArthur's minsistry, I find that an absurd statement to make. In effect he is calling the message heresy, and thus the messenger a heretic-- deviation or dissenting from the doctrine contrary to truth generally accepted.

 

[webdog]

That is what I said.

This is what the dictionary says about heresy and heretics:
Lou did not use the word "heresy" neither "heretic."

He said that MacArthur, Piper, Chantry, Goodman and Havensdad were promoting a "false, non-saving message."
Examining Piper's and MacArthur's minsistry, I find that an absurd statement to make. In effect he is calling the message heresy, and thus the messenger a heretic-- deviation or dissenting from the doctrine contrary to truth generally accepted.

Salvation by grace through faith PLUS works is a non saving message. Lordship Salvation is a doctrine that compromises grace, hence it's another gospel. "In effect" is not the same thing as what you claimed. He did not call anyone a heretic.

 

[Jarthur001]

Salvation by grace through faith PLUS works is a non saving message. Lordship Salvation is a doctrine that compromises grace, hence it's another gospel. "In effect" is not the same thing as what you claimed. He did not call anyone a heretic.

can a person be saved by hearing another gospel?

 

[DHK]

Salvation by grace through faith PLUS works is a non saving message. Lordship Salvation is a doctrine that compromises grace, hence it's another gospel. "In effect" is not the same thing as what you claimed. He did not call anyone a heretic.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Are you suggesting that calling a person "accursed" would have been better than "heresy"?

 

[webdog]

can a person be saved by hearing another gospel?

Are you questioning what God can use?

 

[webdog]

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Are you suggesting that calling a person "accursed" would have been better than "heresy"?

Is salvation by grace through faith, or is it by grace through faith and a commitment?

 

[Jarthur001]

Are you questioning what God can use?

I ask you can a person be saved by hearing another gospel?