All or Nothing?

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

Man is a tri-part being. spirit, soul, and body.

all were cursed. all must die and be judged.

when we spiritually die. do we physically die?
do we mentally die. or die to our will?

No. we die three times. spiritually, mentally and physically.

our nature from birth is to be in enmity against God. spirit,soul and body.

all three "parts" belong to the domain of death.
and..all three are destroyed. one at a time.

spiritual death. Jesus becomes our christ.
soul (will) death. Jesus becomes our lord.
bodily death. we receive a new resurrected body.

that is becoming the image of God.

Mankinds creation is a process. not an instataneous act. Adam was not made in the image of Christ or he would have had a righteous mind, body, and spirit of Christ.

every human being that has ever been physically born will go through this process of dying to their spirit, soul and body. and be replaced by the "image of man" that God intends that they become.

It sounds far-fetched yet equal and non partial to the way every other creature will proceed through the process of becoming "made in the image of God". they will have to die to spirit, soul and body to know whom Christ is to them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

notice that all thing consist within him. He is the image for all men created. the firstborn.

meaning everyone somehow someway will die to spirit, soul and body. be judged and be placed in this image called Christ. the firstborn of every creature.

until then, Christ cannot deliver the kingdom to his Father. for the Kingdom is everyone within the image.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

thats all men in the kingdom (image.., which is "in christ")

everything in the kingdom is patterened after the image, yelsew.

there's nothing that exist outside the image. its entirely placed "in christ". everything will reflect itself from the pattern.

everything.

Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

Me2 said,

that is becoming the image of God.

Once again Me2 you ignore the clear scriptures.

Genesis 1:26,27. God said, "Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground." God created man in the image of himself,
in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

Me2, Notice the tense of the words. None of them mean "is becoming" which could be interpreted as "in progress" or "will be". The Creation of man in God's image is a finished work, not an ongoing work! All Mankind has already been created in the image of God!

Me2 also said,

Mankinds creation is a process. not an instataneous act. Adam was not made in the image of Christ or he would have had a righteous mind, body, and spirit of Christ.

So, you would say then that it took God 930 years to complete the creating of God's image in Adam? And 969 years to create Methuselah in the image of God, while today it takes God a mere 74 years on average to do the same thing? Well by the beginning of the second half of Eternity, God should have it down to a mere few days, and by the third quarter of eternity, just a few moments. Wow, Me2, I'm impressed with your lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

It sounds far-fetched yet equal and non partial to the way every other creature will proceed through the process of becoming "made in the image of God". they will have to die to spirit, soul and body to know whom Christ is to them.

Sounds farfetched? That's an understatement if I've ever heard one. What you just said is not found in the Holy Bible, nor the apocrypha or any other writings that did not get included in the canon of the holy bible. It is universalist mumbo-jumbo!

thats all men in the kingdom (image.., which is "in christ")

everything in the kingdom is patterened after the image, yelsew.

there's nothing that exist outside the image. its entirely placed "in christ". everything will reflect itself from the pattern.

everything.

What are you smoking Me2? What you are saying is not consistent with any scripture in the bible. You'd better go look in a mirror, your head is not screwed on straight!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

lets start with heaven on absolute time while planet earth is on linear time. God speaks from heaven as though what he says "is".. while if what he is stating is about earth. an observerver on earth might have to wait a long amount of time as the expression is unfolding in linear time.

If God states "lets make man in our image".

It takes him less than a second to express his idea while it could take thousands if not millions of years to unfold in linear time.

why not think of "let there be light". yet scientists say that our universe is possibly billions of years old. thats a lot of linear time.

To make man in Gods image requires man to be "IMMEDIATELY IN GODS IMAGE".
which if it be Christ. then mankind must wait for the arrival of the true IMAGE which is Christ. what is Christ called?..the firstborn.

Firstborn From where?... not planet earth.
Christ is firstborn from "the dead".

He is born body, soul and spirit from the dead.

as is everyone else who is added into the number of the image of God.

quick question about the revelation..

Does it state when Christ is being coronated Lord over all?. its a scene in heaven. absolute time.

and when you figure out that one.

ask yourself, "who is there with him"?..
(in absolute time. When the image of christ was created. All mankind was within it)
(when Jesus was coronated Lord. we were there celebrating his activities)

again, we're dealing with heaven and absolute time. before linear Time. Before creation. before you and I were physically born. Jesus was coronated Lord. Slain before the foundation of the world. before time. buried and resurrected firstborn of the "dead".

and you and I were there celebrating his lordship.
as we were "already" resurrected also.

this is glory, Yelsew. Its knowledge of Gods work through us. in Us and for us.

logically, we would have to say from heaven we were placed into death. on planet earth. and now in sin and enmity working through the operation of death and judgement having to work our way back into the image called being "in Christ".

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

to reveal Gods Glory to his creation. We are physically and spiritually unfolding our lives as it has been created by God. from life in christ delivered into death and returning back into Christ.

its called re-conciliation..being born again!

what is mankind doing yelsew. we are witnessing firsthand what is the knowledge of good and evil. we are witnessing what is the limitless nature of our God. we are learning what is the limitless boundries God is willing to express his care for us.

God is giving us individual personalities designed especially for us. chosen to provide all of the information about our Lord Jesus Christ and the Fullness of the Godhead that is contained within Himself as God will allow us to witness to. which is limitless.

and you care simply about this physical life which is but a vapor in limitless time.

Jam 4:14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

now the next question if one doesnt really understand what there life here represents.
should we even dare to ask what our opinions of everyone else here is deserving to return back to their God?.

To their "original image".

Who has the right to deny such a one from returning, or being reconciliated back to their God?. and they call themselves Christians?

Limited atonememnt, Geez.

Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

now the next question if one doesnt really understand what there life here represents.
should we even dare to ask what our opinions of everyone else here is deserving to return back to their God?.

To their "original image".

ABSOLUTELY!

1 John 4:1-3 "My dear friends, not every spirit is to be trusted, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets are at large in the world. This is the proof of the spirit of God: any spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ, come in human nature, is from God, and no spirit which fails to acknowledge Jesus is from God; it is the spirit of Antichrist, whose coming you have heard of; he is already at large in the world.

Who has the right to deny such a one from returning, or being reconciliated back to their God?. and they call themselves Christians?

Limited atonememnt, Geez.

The scriptures already establish the truth, you add to the scriptures that which supports your theories. There is but one way that man receives eternal life, and that is by FAITH ALONE! You are "reading into scripture" that which you want to believe. You are a universalist, and I cannot, using scripture, make connection with your theology, therefore I am compelled to conclude it to be false!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

1 John 4:1-3 "My dear friends, not every spirit is to be trusted, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets are at large in the world. This is the proof of the spirit of God: any spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ, come in human nature, is from God, and no spirit which fails to acknowledge Jesus is from God; it is the spirit of Antichrist, whose coming you have heard of; he is already at large in the world.

o.k. we have the antichrist teachings (law) as opposed to the christ teachings (faith)

so have you made the connection that these (1 john 4:1-3) are they who are called the "vessels of wrath".

in our immediate future lies a struggle between the two classes of believers with their representive states.

that of following "grace by law" as opposed to following "grace by faith".

yet today we do not see the universal call of God to "all" men. we only see a selective call of God towards men to join into their predetermined and respective rank and file. the limited atonement explanation of the calvinists fits concerning these groups.

although these two groups are in a stale mate. rarely anyone within either group changing their chosen opinion concerning law and faith towards God.

Are they being held in place in their understanding by God?. and does he have a future plans for both groups?.

this is where calvinism stops short. they do not realize that a function is being created of the two groups. a function to serve as witnesses of their prespective viewpoints.

the next question is a function towards what end or goal??

you state that the atonement is meant for all sin. meaning all sinners can be atoned for potentially.

what if the goal of the two groups of both law and faith is to be shown towards the rest of creation?
what if the choice between the two groups is to be made by observers of a third Group?.
Could life be offered to all via the witnessing of the two opposing methods of reaching out to be reconciled to God? of law versus faith?

my contentions as stated is that the two groups are being prepared to bring in the harvest of Gods creation. by being witnesses. both active and passive. allowing Gods creation to discover for themselves the correct pathway back to God.

yet this will not begin to start until the sons of God (vessels of mercy) are complete and trained for their intended purpose.

because of the witnessing of the two groups. the age of the gentiles are completed and we return to the jew. those vessels of wrath that were being used of God in their anti witnessing roles to bring them also into the "image of Christ" by removing their veil and uncovering their eyes and ears to both see and hear the truth of Gods purposes.

as we return back to romans 11..

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

allowing for the interpretation being that israel represents those who follow law to please God and the gentiles represents those who follow faith to please God.

Like I keep repeating. Calvnist interpretations of limited atonement is a temporary viewpoint only allowing a larger and unlimited atonement for all as the end goal of Gods salvic operation towards his creation.

Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

o.k. we have the antichrist teachings (law) as opposed to the christ teachings (faith)

so have you made the connection that these (1 john 4:1-3) are they who are called the "vessels of wrath".

I have made no connection! With your theology it is impossible to make a connection!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

My mistake for assuming.

yet there is a blatant attempt to create two opposing factions or groups within the NT.

my suggestion would be to correlate the similarities and differences between the two.

you will find that they are the selfsame groups of vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy.

sheep and goats, wheat and tares, obedient and disobedient. christ and antichrist, law and faith,
flesh and spirit, etc, etc

Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Me2:
Yelsew2,

My mistake for assuming.

yet there is a blatant attempt to create two opposing factions or groups within the NT.

my suggestion would be to correlate the similarities and differences between the two.

you will find that they are the selfsame groups of vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy.

sheep and goats, wheat and tares, obedient and disobedient. christ and antichrist, law and faith,
flesh and spirit, etc, etc

Me2

And your point is?

 

[GH]

There is but one way that man receives eternal life, and that is by FAITH ALONE!

Yelsew,

How do you suppose that ALL ISRAEL will be saved?

Chapter 11 (KJV)
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

All glory praise and honor to you Almighty Father!

 

[Yelsew2]

GH, Since the Jews are God's Chosen people, and since God has chosen to deal with them separately from the Gentiles. Paul deals with the topic as you posted in Romans 11:25-32.

What Paul does not explain is that when God removes the sins of Israel, All of Israel will come to FAITH! When God removes the "hardening" All the hearts of Israel will open to Jesus in FAITH.

Therefore, it remains FAITH ALONE that saves!

 

[Brian Bosse]

I believe my thread has been hijacked! What has all of this to do with the consistency of a 4 - point Calivinist? Nothing. Focus boys!

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Brian Bosse:
I believe my thread has been hijacked! What has all of this to do with the consistency of a 4 - point Calivinist? Nothing. Focus boys!

If a 5 point Calvinist is the standard by which consistancy is measured, then any calvinist who believes in less than 5 points is inconsistant!

You established the rule for this thread, now it is your turn to explain your point!