...all things to work together...

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It’s those glasses you are reading and interpreting through; they are distorting your perception. God’s Sovereignty is not based in a form of “Deterministic Sovereignty” but is a form of “Providential Sovereignty”. When one gets too wrapped up in supporting systematic must fit traditional theologies of men they have a tendency to get somewhat spoiled and arrive at empty and logically meaningless and thereby untruthful doctrines.

Those are allot of blanket statements you throw around without proving them out. Since you really dont know me then I will be gracious & allow you some slack. But everything you say, I hope you realize, is a view from a point....ie your point of view so .... unless you tell me that for years you've been a student of theology & Christian doctrine & that your expert (published would be even better) & that you are a scholar in this subject matter, then please dont waste your time.....Im not interested.

Thanks

 

[Alcott]

However you see this, it's obvious we don't have brain nibble of the capacity to understand all things and how they work together for any purpose. So I ordinarily just don't give thought to simple, regular things that happen one way or another every moment. And then there are the deeper questions of whether God causes evil things to happen as part of that working together. Quote:
This is not true.We have been given everything necessary to life and Godliness.

You're saying it's not true that we don't have brain nibble of the capacity to understand all things and how they work together for any purpose? restated: Do we don't we?

God is in complete control of every atom in His universe, and He has them all working toward His ordained purpose.

So sin and suffering were his own conception he brought to fruition?

 

[Benjamin]

.... unless you tell me that for years you've been a student of theology & Christian doctrine & that your expert (published would be even better) & that you are a scholar in this subject matter, then please dont waste your time.....Im not interested.

Thanks

Read, understand and respect the wisdom of God concerning the origin of the doctrines you are hyped up on, lurk for countless hours on this board to defend and can't see past:

Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Read, understand and respect the wisdom of God concerning the origin of the doctrines you are hyped up on, lurk for countless hours on this board to defend and can't see past:

Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Im sorry but that is a weak & ineffective response. Look, Im done fighting you on this stuff (your not convincing me & I am not convincing you) so what we have here is a standstill. Good luck with your life but audios to us having further dialog.

 

[Herald]

Romans 8:28

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28 And we know that [a]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Footnotes:

1. Romans 8:28 One early ms reads all things work together for good

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I can go for years without giving a lot of thought to this oft-cited verse, but reading from or listening to someone who holds it more.... close? special? fundamental?-- whatever... can get those thoughts churning, which never leads to an unchangeable solution. I don't think it is of prime importance whether "God causes..." or just "all things work..." because that does not change the direction-- and indeed, if God does not cause things to work together for good, then who or what can that does?


Nevertheless, if you proceed through life like myself, not attributing yesterday's figures of 49 degrees for the low and 75 for the high to any divine purpose, rather to climate and geography, perhaps you fail the significance of the message of this verse. But what is the right approach? Did God cause those temperatures for something 'good' that wouldn't happen otherwise? Maybe to stop something 'bad' that would? Then, it may be asked, why doesn't he keep the temperature of the waters on the coasts too cold to swim during spring break-- indeed, all the time-- so people don't go around in skimpy swimsuits, resulting in lustful and promiscuous behavior? However you see this, it's obvious we don't have brain nibble of the capacity to understand all things and how they work together for any purpose. So I ordinarily just don't give thought to simple, regular things that happen one way or another every moment. And then there are the deeper questions of whether God causes evil things to happen as part of that working together.


Are we best thinking about this issue or not, since we can't possibly understand all it necessarily involves? [And did God just cause that medical center rep to call and interrupt this to find out why I haven't set up my appointment for a bone scan yet?] Is a football player right to get on his knees and thank God the touchdown he just scored, since God caused him to do it? ... this is too much.

No matter what happens in the life of a believer, God uses it as part of our deliverance from evil (sanctification), and as part of His divine plan. That plan will result in our realized glorification, not just our now promised glorification. This passage must have been a precious promise for the early church martyrs to cling to as they faced death on account of their faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

Alcott

You're saying it's not true that we [/COLOR][/COLOR]don't have brain nibble of the capacity to understand all things and how they work together for any purpose? restated: Do we don't we?

Hello Alcott.....I am saying we do have the ability to understand the truths God has wisely revealed...by the Spirit quickening the word to us-

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


The natural man will not understand it correctly because he cannot.

So sin and suffering were his own conception he brought to fruition?

the fall brought sin and death as a consequence of Adams rebellion.

Alcott...let me say it simply....There cannot be anything outside of God's control....or he would not be God.

Take the time and read and look up the verses offered by John Flavel,in the posted link.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

but is a form of “Providential Sovereignty”.

How do you mean this? In what way is it different from what John Flavel offers in the link?

Do you find fault with the link?

 

[Alcott]

I am saying we do have the ability to understand the truths God has wisely revealed...by the Spirit quickening the word to us

You are obviously not going to answer the question asked-- which is a complete thought followed one of these: "?"

There cannot be anything outside of God's control....or he would not be God.

Actually you can not prove that. Maybe he does, for all we know, have a unique name or number for every individual beetle of every species, and has an order by which each will be eaten by a spider, bird, or other creature, which he won't let be thwarted. But that's only one of millions or billions of setups that are wayyy beyond our capacities to process. Yet since he is the only God and he does it the way he does it, it is still not justified to say if he doesn't do it the way he does it that he wouldn't be God. We know neither a different way of his doing things, nor another god's way of doing things-- because neither exists.

Take the time and read and look up the verses offered by John Flavel,in the posted link.

I've spent much of the past 2 weeks looking at different scriptures cited by authors about this, and sometimes the same scriptures to point to different conclusions. The only point is that it's the scriptures and not the conclusions that are The Word.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

QUOTE=Alcott I can go for years without giving a lot of thought to this oft-cited verse, but reading from or listening to someone who holds it more.... close? special? fundamental?-- whatever... can get those thoughts churning, which never leads to an unchangeable solution. I don't think it is of prime importance whether "God causes..." or just "all things work..." because that does not change the direction-- and indeed, if God does not cause things to work together for good, then who or what can that does?


Nevertheless, if you proceed through life like myself, not attributing yesterday's figures of 49 degrees for the low and 75 for the high to any divine purpose, rather to climate and geography, perhaps you fail the significance of the message of this verse. But what is the right approach? Did God cause those temperatures for something 'good' that wouldn't happen otherwise? Maybe to stop something 'bad' that would? Then, it may be asked, why doesn't he keep the temperature of the waters on the coasts too cold to swim during spring break-- indeed, all the time-- so people don't go around in skimpy swimsuits, resulting in lustful and promiscuous behavior? However you see this, it's obvious we don't have brain nibble of the capacity to understand all things and how they work together for any purpose. So I ordinarily just don't give thought to simple, regular things that happen one way or another every moment. And then there are the deeper questions of whether God causes evil things to happen as part of that working together.


Are we best thinking about this issue or not, since we can't possibly understand all it necessarily involves?

I think we need to look at the verse very closely to see what it is and is NOT saying and I bolded key words and phrases:
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Two key things stick out in my mind:
1.) It does NOT say that all things "ARE" good per se. It says all things work TOGETHER. Some things, are not in and of themselves inherently "good". What God's promise is that we know that all things ultimately bring about his purposes.
2.) By "GOOD"... Paul means that which serves God's ultimate purpose, not ours. Some things may in a direct sense (to us anyway) be "bad"...but God has either caused or allowed them so that he may work it together with other things for his ultimate "good".

What Joseph's brothers did to him WAS BAD, not "good". What Potiphar's wife did to him was "bad" not "good". But God allowed it to bring about his ultimate purpose, which is "good".

And did God just cause that medical center rep to call and interrupt this to find out why I haven't set up my appointment for a bone scan yet?] Is a football player right to get on his knees and thank God the touchdown he just scored, since God caused him to do it? ... this is too much.

Maybe, and maybe not. Minor "everyday" things such as the weather or a touchdown MAY have signifigance to God of which we are quite unaware. Similarly, it is quite possible that many things are truly coincidental, and have essentially no bearing on God's ultimate purpose. Ultimately, I think this is rarely the case (if ever) but I don't think we can know.

What I would say though with respect to say, the weather, is that I believe that usually that is "Natural Law" at work and not a specific "choice" God has actively made on any given day to "cause" the weather to be something specific. Mind you, when God created the World and set the stars in their courses and created "Natural Law" (which Christ actively sustains)...that was when God chose which particular weather you would have today and tomorrow etc.

God ACTIVELY caused the Sun to "stand still" for Joshua. He interfered with Natural Law that day. Sometimes God "withholds" the showers. In these instances God is altering the "Natural Law" which normally governs. But those are specific instances. Generally, God simply lets nature "run it's course" so to speak. Keep in mind, nature's "course"...is a Natural Law which he created and Christ sustains daily. And when a sparrow falls from the tree, God is very aware of it, but that doesn't mean he shoved the poor thing out of it's nest. He just created that force known as gravity and sustains it.

 

[Benjamin]

double post...

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,

but is a form of “Providential Sovereignty”.

How do you mean this?

Well, first let's not cut out half the meaning and get the whole quote in there which is in regards to a comparison between views concerning Divine Sovereignty:

It’s those glasses you are reading and interpreting through; they are distorting your perception. God’s Sovereignty is not based in a form of “Deterministic Sovereignty” but is a form of “Providential Sovereignty”.

Yes, God is “SOVEREIGN” ...okay?!? I know it freaks you Calvinists/Determinists out to hear me say this. :laugh: You guys seem to think you have a monopoly on the meaning of this word too.

God prepared the “Way of Salvation” from before the foundation for all His creatures. He exercises control and guardianship or maybe better described as management over the WOS through perfect and righteous judgment (Deut 32:4) His grace is genuinely offered to all men and none have an excuse not to respond to His influences (Rom 1:20) - As well it is His will that all men be saved and He is longsuffering in His work to draw us in our love of the “Truth” (2Pet 3:9) which He reveals to all and judges thereby, but He does not deterministically cause them to love the Truth, what He does do is provide the means for the WOS and manage this for all His Divinely designed volitional creatures - IOW’s He is “Providentially Sovereign” not “Deterministically Sovereign” over the world He created.

All God’s ways are judgment in Truth. With truth in judgment comes responsibility and therefore the *genuine ability of His Divinely Designed creatures who gained knowledge and reason to respond to His drawing. God set forth a condition upon all His creatures to accept His free loving offer of grace which is His WOS: Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, *lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:” – God providentially placed a Mediator (Jesus Christ/The Word/The Light of the Truth) into all the world over which He is Sovereign and by which His judgment comes after the “counsel” of His will:

Eph 1:6-13
(6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
(9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
(10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The Calvinist/Determinist view of “Deterministic Sovereignty” is simply formed through strict adherence to man-made force to fit philosophical principles (boxed in TULIP guidelines of interpretation, …note: Col 2:8) of which all their interpretations logically must vitally hinge on deterministic factors to float, thereby their view of God’s Sovereignty naturally must contain the “deterministic” factor.

It seems Calvinists/Determinists attempt to impose determinism onto God’s sovereignty (Deterministic Sovereignty) much like they impose pre-selection on God’s grace when they refer to their doctrines as THE “Doctrines of Grace”; in doing so they exclude genuine faith coming from volitional creatures of knowledge and reason and unconscionably and fatalistically remove the condition of salvation coming by grace through faith as if the WOS comes through pre-selected deterministic grace alone.

It is clear that God’s Sovereignty over the world is through Providential Judgments made in Truth and based on “real” ability to respond and there is a true condition:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Yes, I have no problem declaring that God is Sovereign but I rightfully understand that Sovereignty as meaning a Divinely Providential form of control over the world…

I’ve discussed my view of Divine Sovereignty in relation to DF here before:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1858933&postcount=48

In what way is it different from what John Flavel offers in the link?
Do you find fault with the link?

P.S. Don’t have time to unravel the thoughts of your boy. Rather just use my own words…


Hope that helps. :saint:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, God is “SOVEREIGN” ...okay?!? I know it freaks you Calvinists/Determinists out to hear me say this. You guys seem to think you have a monopoly on the meaning of this word too.

:thumbs: Good Benjamin, you see...it did not hurt you at all to use these terms in this Post.Your...."inner calvinist" is slowly emerging!:applause:
Anyone who keeps reading the scripture will see it sooner or later.

God prepared the “Way of Salvation” from before the foundation for all His creatures.

Scripture indicates it was only those who are given to Jesus.....not all creatures, but those elected to be redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb slain.

He exercises control and guardianship or maybe better described as management over the WOS

In scripture he is not only a guardian, or manager, but rather in absolute control as the confession states;
Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence
1._____ God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.
( Hebrews 1:3; Job 38:11; Isaiah 46:10, 11; Psalms 135:6; Matthew 10:29-31; Ephesians 1:11 )

2._____ Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without his providence; yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
( Acts 2:23; Proverbs 16:33; Genesis 8:22 )

3._____ God, in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
( Acts 27:31, 44; Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hosea 1:7; Romans 4:19-21; Daniel 3:27 )

4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

7._____ As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of his church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.
( 1 Timothy 4:10; Amos 9:8, 9; Isaiah 43:3-5 )

through perfect and righteous judgment (Deut 32:4) His grace is genuinely offered to all men and none have an excuse not to respond to His influences (Rom 1:20) -

Okay....:thumbs:

As well it is His will that all men be saved

This is a falsehood.

....more in part two---- i must drive again now, before i run out of hours....more later.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Benjaman...

EWF posted to you...

so what we have here is a standstill. Good luck with your life but audios to us having further dialog.

Dont feel like the Lone ranger.

He will no longer corespond with me, either.

 

[Van]

What is the intended message of "God causes all things to work together for good for those called according to His purpose." First this usage of the word translated "called" actually refers to being set apart in Christ, thus those saved. Everything that happens to His people on earth work together for good, for the progressive sanctification of and the ministry of His children.

This then comforts us as we endure horrific circumstances here on earth. For example it is not the cards we are dealt, but how we play them that counts. My great grandmother wrote a letter to my maternal grandfather where she looked ahead to her reunion with her children who had died, and she recounted how she prayed every day for his children. Now she was bed ridden in the 1930"s, and racked with pain as cancer was taking her life. But when I consider Romans 8:28, I think of her.

 

[percho]

Romans 8:28

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28 And we know that [a]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Footnotes:

1. Romans 8:28 One early ms reads all things work together for good

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I can go for years without giving a lot of thought to this oft-cited verse, but reading from or listening to someone who holds it more.... close? special? fundamental?-- whatever... can get those thoughts churning, which never leads to an unchangeable solution. I don't think it is of prime importance whether "God causes..." or just "all things work..." because that does not change the direction-- and indeed, if God does not cause things to work together for good, then who or what can that does?


Nevertheless, if you proceed through life like myself, not attributing yesterday's figures of 49 degrees for the low and 75 for the high to any divine purpose, rather to climate and geography, perhaps you fail the significance of the message of this verse. But what is the right approach? Did God cause those temperatures for something 'good' that wouldn't happen otherwise? Maybe to stop something 'bad' that would? Then, it may be asked, why doesn't he keep the temperature of the waters on the coasts too cold to swim during spring break-- indeed, all the time-- so people don't go around in skimpy swimsuits, resulting in lustful and promiscuous behavior? However you see this, it's obvious we don't have brain nibble of the capacity to understand all things and how they work together for any purpose. So I ordinarily just don't give thought to simple, regular things that happen one way or another every moment. And then there are the deeper questions of whether God causes evil things to happen as part of that working together.


Are we best thinking about this issue or not, since we can't possibly understand all it necessarily involves? [And did God just cause that medical center rep to call and interrupt this to find out why I haven't set up my appointment for a bone scan yet?] Is a football player right to get on his knees and thank God the touchdown he just scored, since God caused him to do it? ... this is too much.

Consider that verse is eight verses after this one.

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,


And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; (so born in his image?)

we -- we love him, because He -- He first loved us; 1 John 4:19

Question? Relative to the creation subjected to vanity, by the Creator, is the Creator presently concerned with one of the creation other than, one of the called, according to purpose?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread from 2013 (nine years ago) is closed.