All ya need is love... All ya need is love.

[Yelsew]

Wputnam said,

I now think back to the several attempts I made to indicate that the communicant is not eating "actual" (natural) meat or "actual" (natural) blood, but in fact, His "body" and "blood" in the accidental form of bread and wine, now no longer bread and wine, even while the "accidents" remain.

It is no accident that Jesus used bread and wine as SYMBOLS of his real body and blood. He knew that His blood would be spilt upon the ground and that his body would be resurrected and taken up to heaven completely out of the reach of mankind. Therefore he offered us substitutes with which to SYMBOLICALLY remember that solemn event 2000 years ago. He did not bless them and say that when you consume these they "become real" to your body. The ceremony was itself symbolic, a "passing the flag" ceremony where he was giving to those who had successfully graduated from his College of Christianity, a token whereby they could be reminded of what it is that Jesus did for them and for all they could persuade to believe.

Catholicism convolutes the symbology, robbing it of its true value, which is remembrance of the reality, and not the reality itself. Just remember, there never has been a symbol that took over the role of what is symbolized.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Wputnam said, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I now think back to the several attempts I made to indicate that the communicant is not eating "actual" (natural) meat or "actual" (natural) blood, but in fact, His "body" and "blood" in the accidental form of bread and wine, now no longer bread and wine, even while the "accidents" remain.

It is no accident that Jesus used bread and wine as SYMBOLS of his real body and blood. He knew that His blood would be spilt upon the ground and that his body would be resurrected and taken up to heaven completely out of the reach of mankind. Therefore he offered us substitutes with which to SYMBOLICALLY remember that solemn event 2000 years ago. He did not bless them and say that when you consume these they "become real" to your body. The ceremony was itself symbolic, a "passing the flag" ceremony where he was giving to those who had successfully graduated from his College of Christianity, a token whereby they could be reminded of what it is that Jesus did for them and for all they could persuade to believe.

Catholicism convolutes the symbology, robbing it of its true value, which is remembrance of the reality, and not the reality itself. Just remember, there never has been a symbol that took over the role of what is symbolized. </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

You overlook one thing. They already had a perfectly good symbol of Jesus laying on the table. It was the passover. They had sacrificed and roasted a lamb over an open flame. Blood had been spilled and it's flesh had to be eaten before the dawn of a new day. So why did Jesus just create another symbol of himself. He already had a perfectly good one on the table. Further, how does this symbol tie in with the bread and the wine? It must since the bread and wine symbolize Jesus (we catholics believe that also) and the lamb symbolizes Jesus.

By the way the bread and the wine do not take over the role that they symbolize for they are no longer bread and wine. They become what we must become. We are formed in his image. When we eat food it becomes us in the normal situation. In this case we become it. Blessings.

 

[Yelsew]

You overlook one thing. They already had a perfectly good symbol of Jesus laying on the table. It was the passover. They had sacrificed and roasted a lamb over an open flame. Blood had been spilled and it's flesh had to be eaten before the dawn of a new day. So why did Jesus just create another symbol of himself. He already had a perfectly good one on the table. Further, how does this symbol tie in with the bread and the wine? It must since the bread and wine symbolize Jesus (we catholics believe that also) and the lamb symbolizes Jesus.

The Passover is of the old covenent, Jesus established a new covenant. Under the old, the lamb represented that which was to come, and it symbolized the sacrifice that would take away the sins of the world. Under the new, Jesus himself was sacrificed ONCE of the sins of the world. The bread and wine are SYMBOLS of what was done for us. Because that which was done completed the work, and there are no more blood sacrifices, the bread became the symbol of the flesh, the wine became the symbol of the blood which was spilt. The Atonement is a finished work. There will never be another atonement! There is no more an anticipation of the coming messiah for believers. He has been here and will come again. However, until he does return we are to symbolize his coming using substitues for his flesh and blood in an act of remembrance of the reality that happened. Those symbols do not ever become the reality, except in one's spirit, the part of man without the sense of taste. Spirits do not consume solid food. Spirits consume the words of God for sustainance.

By the way the bread and the wine do not take over the role that they symbolize for they are no longer bread and wine. They become what we must become. We are formed in his image. When we eat food it becomes us in the normal situation. In this case we become it. Blessings.

Transubstantiation, the self initiated change of substance from one form to another. Where in God's creation does such exist? Nowhere, but in the minds of deluded people!

 

[WPutnam]

Yelsew was seen to say:

Transubstantiation, the self initiated change of substance from one form to another. Where in God's creation does such exist? Nowhere, but in the minds of deluded people!

Hummmm, perhaps you would like to read some of the writings of other "deluded people" who believed in transubstantiation and of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. And by the way, some of these guys were taught at the feet of the apostles themselves (or at least a second generation student.)

Or perhaps you will claim that error fell into the church so early after Pentecost?

Anyway, here they are:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/realp.htm


http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/trans.htm

(There may be some overlap in the above...)

Have a good read!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[Yelsew]

There is significant error in claiming that a cracker made from wheat becomes the body of the Christ through its consumption! The truth is the cracker is symbolic of the body of the Christ, and by consuming it one symbolically partakes of the body of the Christ for the sake of the one's spirit!

That is not "actual transubstantiation", but rather "symbolic transubstantiation".

You see I accept and believe substitutionary symbology that represents the spiritual truth. I do not accept unfounded and unprovable transubstantiation where one substance becomes another for the sake of consumption. There is no chemistry science you can use to prove it happens.

It matters little what others have written. Like Thomas, I'll believe you when you can prove it! In the mean time I will continue to partake of the Eucharist worthily and in accordance with God's Holy Word.

 

[thessalonian]

Yelsew:

Make the lame walk and the blind see.Only delusional people would believe that.

Raise the dead? Only delusional people would believe that.

Water turn in to dry land. Delusion.

Virgin concieve. No way man, delusion.

An axe float? You nuts. (see kings).

Feed 5000 with loaves and fishtes. Crazy.




"Transubstantiation, the self initiated change of substance from one form to another. Where in God's creation does such exist? Nowhere, but in the minds of deluded people! "

Do you deny that God could do it. He said he could you know. Matt 3:9. ; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

That would be transubstantiation of sorts now wouldn't it. I would be kind of careful who I am calling delusional if I were you. God might not like it.

[ May 15, 2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Yelsew:

Make the lame walk and the blind see.Only delusional people would believe that.

Raise the dead? Only delusional people would believe that.

Water turn in to dry land. Delusion.

Virgin concieve. No way man, delusion.

An axe float? You nuts. (see kings).

Feed 5000 with loaves and fishtes. Crazy.




"Transubstantiation, the self initiated change of substance from one form to another. Where in God's creation does such exist? Nowhere, but in the minds of deluded people! "

Do you deny that God could do it. He said he could you know. Matt 3:9. ; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

That would be transubstantiation of sorts now wouldn't it. I would be kind of careful who I am calling delusional if I were you. God might not like it.

Have you first hand knowledge of such happening? If not, you must take it on faith and faith alone that it did happen.

Have you witnessed or experienced the wafer turning into the flesh of Jesus, which you say happens before it is consumed? Or the Wine turning into the blood of Jesus before it is consumed? If no then you must take it on faith and faith alone that it happens. That is no different than the protestant belief.

If Yes, why are you keeping it secret? Why don't you show it happening to the whole world so that they too will know that it happens.

But alas, the Eucharist does not transubstantiate. The wheat wafer remains a wheat wafer to your body and is digested within you as a wheat product, and the wine as a grape product. But, to your spirit, By faith and faith alone, the wafer is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ. Just like it is for the protestant and the Orthodox.

Call a spade a spade and we have nothing to quarrel about. Call a spade a battleaxe and war breaks out about it.

 

[GraceSaves]

Yeslew,

That was hilarious. Of course we accept transubstantiation on faith! What are you thinking? Hello? Are you paying attention?

We accept all of our Christian beliefs on faith. That's the whole point.

God bless,

Grant

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thessalonian:
Yelsew:

Make the lame walk and the blind see.Only delusional people would believe that.

Raise the dead? Only delusional people would believe that.

Water turn in to dry land. Delusion.

Virgin concieve. No way man, delusion.

An axe float? You nuts. (see kings).

Feed 5000 with loaves and fishtes. Crazy.




"Transubstantiation, the self initiated change of substance from one form to another. Where in God's creation does such exist? Nowhere, but in the minds of deluded people! "

Do you deny that God could do it. He said he could you know. Matt 3:9. ; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

That would be transubstantiation of sorts now wouldn't it. I would be kind of careful who I am calling delusional if I were you. God might not like it.

Have you first hand knowledge of such happening? If not, you must take it on faith and faith alone that it did happen.

Have you witnessed or experienced the wafer turning into the flesh of Jesus, which you say happens before it is consumed? Or the Wine turning into the blood of Jesus before it is consumed? If no then you must take it on faith and faith alone that it happens. That is no different than the protestant belief.

If Yes, why are you keeping it secret? Why don't you show it happening to the whole world so that they too will know that it happens.

But alas, the Eucharist does not transubstantiate. The wheat wafer remains a wheat wafer to your body and is digested within you as a wheat product, and the wine as a grape product. But, to your spirit, By faith and faith alone, the wafer is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ. Just like it is for the protestant and the Orthodox.

Call a spade a spade and we have nothing to quarrel about. Call a spade a battleaxe and war breaks out about it. </font>[/QUOTE]Here is something for you. I feel like I am pearl casting but have a look anyway. The one in Laciano Italy is of particular interest because it first occured in the 800's but you can go and see it today. It has had scientific studies done on it in which it was determined to be real flesh and blood. The blood type interestingly enough matched the shroud of turin.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

I also belonged to a parish that had a chalice that oozed what was believed to be real blood though I don't know that any actual tests were done on it. I did not see it as it was toward the end of my stay there. But I know many people who did and will vouch for their character. God has confirmed the real prescence for me in a very personal way that would be difficult for me to share with those outside the faith. After this experience I could never reject it. So yes, I guess I do have a personal witness. It's true Yelsew.

Blessings

 

[Yelsew]

I hope that by "outside the faith" you mean only "non- Catholic". I can assure you that my faith in Jesus, the son of God, the Christ is equal to any Catholic's faith.

Well, it appears no evidence exists that the wafers and wine (or juice) used in the Eucharist, do, in fact, transubstantiate as your doctrine says they do!

That makes them exactly like the Protestant wafers and wine (juice). So for the Catholic, and the protestant alike, it requires a spiritual imagination IN FAITH for the Eucharistic elements to take on the character of the flesh and blood of Jesus, the Christ.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

If not, feel free to offer evidence to the contrary. My concern is not with "miracles", only with the sacraments/ordinances of the church.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I hope that by "outside the faith" you mean only "non- Catholic". I can assure you that my faith in Jesus, the son of God, the Christ is equal to any Catholic's faith.

Well, it appears no evidence exists that the wafers and wine (or juice) used in the Eucharist, do, in fact, transubstantiate as your doctrine says they do!

That makes them exactly like the Protestant wafers and wine (juice). So for the Catholic, and the protestant alike, it requires a spiritual imagination IN FAITH for the Eucharistic elements to take on the character of the flesh and blood of Jesus, the Christ.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

If not, feel free to offer evidence to the contrary. My concern is not with "miracles", only with the sacraments/ordinances of the church.

Yelsew,

Pearl castin it was. For those who do not believe no evidence would be enough. For those who believe none is neccessary. Hang on to your johnny come lately 16th century doctrine if you like. By the way I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in you so guess what?

Taking a break from the board. This gets old.

 

[Yelsew]

Your inferrance that I am swine gets old too, Thess! Your piusness and smugness get's old.

You have been unable to answer the question with factual evidence or at least clear logic. That tells any reader that you too, do not know what your faith really is.

Protestants believe in a spiritual manner, that the elements of the Eucharist are the Body and Blood of the Christ. But we know that they do not of themselves become the real body and blood. We accept on FAITH that they are symbols that respresent the Real flesh and blood of Jesus, the Christ

The facts are you cannot own up to the false reality of your own false doctrine!

Guess what? It doesn't matter to God whether you accept the truth or not, so long as you eat the wafer and drink the cup IN REMEBRANCE of Him. It is not for Him that we do so, it is for US! It does not matter to our salvation!

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Your inferrance that I am swine gets old too, Thess! Your piusness and smugness get's old.

You have been unable to answer the question with factual evidence or at least clear logic. That tells any reader that you too, do not know what your faith really is.

Protestants believe in a spiritual manner, that the elements of the Eucharist are the Body and Blood of the Christ. But we know that they do not of themselves become the real body and blood. We accept on FAITH that they are symbols that respresent the Real flesh and blood of Jesus, the Christ

The facts are you cannot own up to the false reality of your own false doctrine!

Guess what? It doesn't matter to God whether you accept the truth or not, so long as you eat the wafer and drink the cup IN REMEBRANCE of Him. It is not for Him that we do so, it is for US! It does not matter to our salvation!

God bless you Yelsew.