"All"

[Tenchi]

No, you can't respond to that cut and paste job of 93.4% Scriptures. We know that.

You admit to my point, then, that your purpose was to stifle discussion rather than foster it. This was obvious without your admission, however.

Goats never become sheep, tares never become wheat, and the children of the devil never become the children of God (John 8:44; 10:11; Heb. 2:10).

John 8:41-45
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

There is no place in this passage where Jesus says anything like you have in your statement above. He identifies that the Pharisees were "of your father, the devil" but this is no more than is true of all who are saved. Read Titus 3:3, or Ephesians 2:1-3, or Colossians 1:21. Each of these dark descriptions are of those who were once lost but had become brethren in the faith. Every person who is saved has been "rescued from the domain of darkness and delivered into the kingdom of God" (Col. 1:13), so it is just plainly false that "goats never become sheep," "tares never become wheat," etc.

John 10:10-11
10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Where in this couplet of verses does Jesus say anything like "goats never become sheep"? Nowhere. Nor does he do so in the entire chapter.

Hebrews 2:9-16
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

Here, the writer of Hebrews indicates that those Christ calls "brothers" were delivered by him from the power of the devil who was "destroyed" by the sacrificial death of Christ at Calvary. These "brothers," fearing death and thus being under the devil's power - slaves to him, in fact - were liberated by Jesus, becoming "sons of glory." So this passage says the opposite of what you've asserted above @Alan Dale Gross. In fact, it is only those who are slaves to the power of the devil, prisoners in his kingdom of darkness, who are delivered from his power by the saving work of Christ.

They who have cast off the restrictive character of Christ's atonement teach that Christ died for all the sins of all men, and at the same time own the truth that some people are already in hell and that others are going there daily.

It is not Christ's teaching that is restrictive, as far as the scope of his Atonement is concerned, but the false teaching of the Calvinism.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 3:14-17
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

And so on.

There is no inconsistency in acknowledging the plain statement of God's word above and acknowledging also what His word says about the way to life being narrow and difficult and few finding it. (Matt. 7:14) If a boat has lifejackets in good working order for all in the boat and some do not use the lifejackets, is it the fault of the lifejacket that some who reject wearing one may drown if the boat capsizes? Obviously not. That the lifejacket was not efficacious for the drowned person doesn't mean it wasn't sufficient to save them had they worn it. There is nothing at all inconsistent about this. In the same way, God's salvation is extended to the world, sufficient to save any and all who believe on the Son. Some refuse this great gift and die unrepentant in their sins and go to hell, but this is no reflection upon the sufficiency of the Atonement to save whosoever chooses to be saved.

This is not merely a glaring inconsistency on their part, but it is to charge the infinitely holy God with injustice. God does not exact payment for sin twice, once at the bleeding hand of His beloved Son, and then again at the hands of those for whom Christ paid the full ransom price.

Strawman.

 

[Silverhair]

You admit to my point, then, that your purpose was to stifle discussion rather than foster it. This was obvious without your admission, however.



John 8:41-45
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

There is no place in this passage where Jesus says anything like you have in your statement above. He identifies that the Pharisees were "of your father, the devil" but this is no more than is true of all who are saved. Read Titus 3:3, or Ephesians 2:1-3, or Colossians 1:21. Each of these dark descriptions are of those who were once lost but had become brethren in the faith. Every person who is saved has been "rescued from the domain of darkness and delivered into the kingdom of God" (Col. 1:13), so it is just plainly false that "goats never become sheep," "tares never become wheat," etc.

John 10:10-11
10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Where in this couplet of verses does Jesus say anything like "goats never become sheep"? Nowhere. Nor does he do so in the entire chapter.

Hebrews 2:9-16
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

Here, the writer of Hebrews indicates that those Christ calls "brothers" were delivered by him from the power of the devil who was "destroyed" by the sacrificial death of Christ at Calvary. These "brothers," fearing death and thus being under the devil's power - slaves to him, in fact - were liberated by Jesus, becoming "sons of glory." So this passage says the opposite of what you've asserted above @Alan Dale Gross. In fact, it is only those who are slaves to the power of the devil, prisoners in his kingdom of darkness, who are delivered from his power by the saving work of Christ.



It is not Christ's teaching that is restrictive, as far as the scope of his Atonement is concerned, but the false teaching of the Calvinism.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 3:14-17
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

And so on.

There is no inconsistency in acknowledging the plain statement of God's word above and acknowledging also what His word says about the way to life being narrow and difficult and few finding it. (Matt. 7:14) If a boat has lifejackets in good working order for all in the boat and some do not use the lifejackets, is it the fault of the lifejacket that some who reject wearing one may drown if the boat capsizes? Obviously not. That the lifejacket was not efficacious for the drowned person doesn't mean it wasn't sufficient to save them had they worn it. There is nothing at all inconsistent about this. In the same way, God's salvation is extended to the world, sufficient to save any and all who believe on the Son. Some refuse this great gift and die unrepentant in their sins and go to hell, but this is no reflection upon the sufficiency of the Atonement to save whosoever chooses to be saved.



Strawman.

I was going to reply to Alan but you covered that very well.

Where Alan and most calvinists fail is that the cherry pick out of context verses.

Context and calvinism do not go together. They really need to learn the the bible is not a book of one liners.

 

[atpollard]

I was going to reply to Alan but you covered that very well.

Where Alan and most calvinists fail is that the cherry pick out of context verses.

Context and calvinism do not go together. They really need to learn the the bible is not a book of one liners.

Do you mean like this …

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What WAS the context of 2 Peter 3?
Was it why Jesus return was delayed so that all the ”beloved” of God could have time to be gathered in?

 

[atpollard]

John 8:41-45
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

There is no place in this passage where Jesus says anything like you have in your statement above.

the “statement above” was … “Goats never become sheep, tares never become wheat, and the children of the devil never become the children of God (John 8:44; 10:11; Heb. 2:10)”.

John 8:43 states “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.”, with “because you CANNOT hear my word” very much standing in support of “children of the devil never become the children of God”, thus rendering your “no place” and “anything like” conclusion erroneous.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you mean like this …


What WAS the context of 2 Peter 3?
Was it why Jesus return was delayed so that all the ”beloved” of God could have time to be gathered in?

Peter was writing to those already saved but does that then require that God only wants those that are already saved not to perish. NO, that has to be read into the text.

None are "beloved" until they are in Christ as all are unforgiven sinners prior to that point. Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1

God sent His son so that all could be saved through Him. John 3:17, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 John 2:1-2, John 20:30-31

So are you saying that some of the "beloved" could fall away and be lost because that is how you would have to read that verse if you think the "beloved" were those "elect" before the foundation of the world.

But if we understand that God desires all to come to repentance then the verse just confirms what the rest of scripture tells us.

The "Particularist" C/R has to deal with the language of the bible that shows God actually desires all to be saved and actually provided the means of that happening.

 

[Silverhair]

the “statement above” was … “Goats never become sheep, tares never become wheat, and the children of the devil never become the children of God (John 8:44; 10:11; Heb. 2:10)”.

John 8:43 states “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.”, with “because you CANNOT hear my word” very much standing in support of “children of the devil never become the children of God”, thus rendering your “no place” and “anything like” conclusion erroneous.

Are you suggesting that all those people were deaf or just to dumb to be able to understand what Christ was saying?

In either case why would Christ condemn them for not believing what He had said?

Speech… word—The speech is His discourse; {John 8:12 ff} the word is His doctrine. As they would not accept His doctrine, so they would persistently pervert and misunderstand His language.
Hear—Listen to, accept. Whedon

The word “hear” in this place is to be understood in the sense of bear or tolerate, as in John 6:60. His doctrine was offensive to them. They hated it, and hence they perverted His meaning, and were resolved not to understand Him. Their pride, vanity, and wickedness opposed it. Barnes

 

[atpollard]

Peter was writing to those already saved but does that then require that God only wants those that are already saved not to perish. NO, that has to be read into the text.

None are "beloved" until they are in Christ as all are unforgiven sinners prior to that point. Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1

God sent His son so that all could be saved through Him. John 3:17, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 John 2:1-2, John 20:30-31

So are you saying that some of the "beloved" could fall away and be lost because that is how you would have to read that verse if you think the "beloved" were those "elect" before the foundation of the world.

But if we understand that God desires all to come to repentance then the verse just confirms what the rest of scripture tells us.

The "Particularist" C/R has to deal with the language of the bible that shows God actually desires all to be saved and actually provided the means of that happening.

I have no complaints with your theology (I simply disagree), I only complain about the eisegesis of 2 Peter 3 that ignores its context to support a conversation that 2 Peter 3 was not discussing (one way or the other). It is about why God delays his return, not who or why some are saved and others are not.

For the record, I have a similar complaint with Prosperity Theology snatching verses out of context to make points that the writer was never discussing, not because God hates blessing people (God certainly blessed Abraham and Job and others with wealth), but because it is a dishonest use of those verses.

My point was that you made it a “Calvinists do this” accusation of cherry-picking verses as you praised an “Arminian doing this” post that included the exact same thing you accused “Calvinists” of. I was pointing out the hypocrisy and double standard.

 

[atpollard]

Are you suggesting that all those people were deaf or just too dumb to be able to understand what Christ was saying?

I am suggesting nothing.

You claimed emphatically that NOTHING in that paragraph supported what the poster had claimed and Jesus clearly STATED (not suggested) that those people (children of the Devil) “cannot hear” Jesus word. I leave it to Scripture to explain why (or God to retain that mystery) and for you to search Scripture to find the answer for yourself. I merely point to what Jesus stated as FACT as contradicting your emphatic claim about the paragraph lacking any support for a specific given statement.

That “children of the Devil”, according to Jesus, “cannot hear” his message does, in fact, support the claim that “children of the Devil never become children of God”.

 

[Silverhair]

I have no complaints with your theology (I simply disagree), I only complain about the eisegesis of 2 Peter 3 that ignores its context to support a conversation that 2 Peter 3 was not discussing (one way or the other). It is about why God delays his return, not who or why some are saved and others are not.

For the record, I have a similar complaint with Prosperity Theology snatching verses out of context to make points that the writer was never discussing, not because God hates blessing people (God certainly blessed Abraham and Job and others with wealth), but because it is a dishonest use of those verses.

My point was that you made it a “Calvinists do this” accusation of cherry-picking verses as you praised an “Arminian doing this” post that included the exact same thing you accused “Calvinists” of. I was pointing out the hypocrisy and double standard.

To quote you "Was it why Jesus return was delayed so that all the ”beloved” of God could have time to be gathered in?"

As I said in my post, no one is beloved until they are in Christ so who were the "beloved" that you were asking about?

As to why God delays His return we can only go by what we see in scripture. "not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance."

God being omniscient knows all that will freely trust in His son so logically He is delaying until the last person makes that choice. That is how I would understand it.

 

[Silverhair]

I am suggesting nothing.

You claimed emphatically that NOTHING in that paragraph supported what the poster had claimed and Jesus clearly STATED (not suggested) that those people (children of the Devil) “cannot hear” Jesus word. I leave it to Scripture to explain why (or God to retain that mystery) and for you to search Scripture to find the answer for yourself. I merely point to what Jesus stated as FACT as contradicting your emphatic claim about the paragraph lacking any support for a specific given statement.

That “children of the Devil”, according to Jesus, “cannot hear” his message does, in fact, support the claim that “children of the Devil never become children of God”.

They were either 1] deaf or 2] they chose not to accept what He was saying.

What does the context show us. Well since they had been responding to what Christ was saying they could not have been deaf. So logically they had to make a choice to reject what He was saying.

The context [John 8:3 ff] shows that Christ was in the temple and interacting with the Pharisees. There continued rejection of what He said and had done led to His comment that they children of the devil.

Since no one is a child of God until they have freely trusted in Him and Christ drew a clear line between Children of God and children of the devil, your one or the other, and as you said: “children of the Devil never become children of God”. “Once a child, always a child” is simply an invalid argument.

 

[atpollard]

To quote you "Was it why Jesus return was delayed so that all the ”beloved” of God could have time to be gathered in?"

As I said in my post, no one is beloved until they are in Christ so who were the "beloved" that you were asking about?

As to why God delays His return we can only go by what we see in scripture. "not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance."

God being omniscient knows all that will freely trust in His son so logically He is delaying until the last person makes that choice. That is how I would understand it.

In other words, you only condemn the eisegetic cherry-picking of verses when it opposes your pet systematic theology, but fully embrace the practice when it supports your systematic theology.

OK, so noted.
Carry on.

 

[Silverhair]

In other words, you only condemn the eisegetic cherry-picking of verses when it opposes your pet systematic theology, but fully embrace the practice when it supports your systematic theology.

OK, so noted.
Carry on.

No, as you can see I refer to the whole text. Note John 8:3 ff.

The context does not support what you have posted.

Try again.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

This is the tactic called "Throwing the Elephant." It's a rotten argument maneuver where a person cuts-and-pastes a huge ream of information to which their opponent cannot possibly fully respond. It would take an enormous amount of time to do so - far, far more time than it took to cut-and-paste the ream of info., which is exactly why the maneuver is employed.

Here's my response to your lousy cut-and-paste tactic:

www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism

www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism

www.soteriology101.com

I don't mean to be categorically devastatingly rude,
but you got a thumbs up from Silverhair.

And, not only that, but the Bible idea we see and read
that says, "not of him that willeth", is where God tells us
not that Salvation is "of him that willeth",
rather that Salvation is "not of him that willeth".

Get it?

Either one of you?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You admit to my point, then, that your purpose was to stifle discussion rather than foster it. This was obvious without your admission, however.

For anyone who The Bible being quoted causes them to be stifled, I see now,
but I had not anticipated for that to become so apparent a hang-up
as well as God showed us that it is for you.. God always has the best illustrations.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Read Titus 3:3, or Ephesians 2:1-3, or Colossians 1:21. Each of these dark descriptions are of those who were once lost but had become brethren in the faith. Every person who is saved has been "rescued from the domain of darkness and delivered into the kingdom of God" (Col. 1:13), so it is just plainly false that "goats never become sheep," "tares never become wheat," etc.

Now, "being rescued from the kingdom of darkness",
is exactly different from ever having been a goat.

I'm not arguing for them being goats, I'm saying that
when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats,
the goats had previously been and continued until their death to be goats and then, Jesus will separate them from those who had been designated sheep
and Judges the goats as goats, just like they'd always been.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Where in this couplet of verses does Jesus say anything like "goats never become sheep"? Nowhere. Nor does he do so in the entire

Where in this couplet of verses does Jesus say anything like "goats become sheep"? Nowhere. Nor does he do so in the entire chapter.

Mr. Gratuitive Assertion Fallacy. Back at yah.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Hebrews 2:9-16
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

"Everyone" that the entire context is referring to. It's an English Language thing.

Like:

many sons

And:

those who are sanctified

And:

call them brothers,

And:

your name

And:

the children God has given me.”

And:

deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

And, why not?:

the offspring of Abraham.

...

Here, the writer of Hebrews indicates that those Christ calls "brothers" were delivered by him from the power of the devil who was "destroyed" by the sacrificial death of Christ at Calvary. These "brothers," fearing death and thus being under the devil's power - slaves to him, in fact - were liberated by Jesus, becoming "sons of glory."

Yep, those are who Jesus refers to as "everyone".

In CONTEXT. NOT ANYONE ELSE.

AND none of this has anything to do with the metaphor used of the word, "goat",
except that you are guessing that somewhere something actually teaches
that "sheep used to be goats" AND IT DOESN'T,
BECAUSE THAT WOULD NEGATE THE WHOLE USE OF THE SYMBOLIC DESIGNATION.

You are just wrongly guessing that is the way you want it to be,
but it not in there that way; for a reason.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Here, I took off your negative to have it stating it right;

Christ's teaching that is restrictive, as far as the scope of his Atonement is concerned,

The Restriction of "everyone" is Restricted to those
"who beholds the Son and believes in Him", right, right, right?

everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him

...

The ones who God says that He is not willing, etc., is the "us-ward",
not anyone everywhere or anywhere.

The "us-ward" is God's Restriction, isn't it.

That's a statement.

How God Saves souls and the ideas of men not able to think clearly
and read plainly are two different things.

You call God's Revelation of How God Saves souls, "Calvinism",
but The Eternal Doctrines of Grace in every book of the Bible
is simply the One Way God Saves souls,

then, when He says you "will not come" and you say,
you "will come to Him" on your own,
or when He mentions "Quickened from the dead",
you say you "quicken yourself" with the Power of
Having Eternal Life you've earned, by your Perfect Life
you lived under God's Universal Moral Law
since your conception, over the death grip of Satan
who had you in his Domain of Darkness,
to Deliever yourself by taking possession of Eternal Life, by the 'power of your will"?

You have that kind of strength as a dead soul, Spiritually,
who had no way of relating to God Who is Spirit?

is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

...

It's O.K., to show The Bible verses in Context, so you could know, IF GOD SHOWED YOU, who God is talking about and what RESTRICTS THE "ALL" THAT YOU DID QUOTE.

When I Timothy 1:1 says, " first of all", is that saying
that he wanted us to look at the first thing to be considered,

FROM "ALL" OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY WHO EVER EXISTED OR WILL EXIST,

OR DOES HE SAY HE WANTS TO LOOK AT THE FIRST THING HE IS TAKING UNDER CONSIDERATION, FROM AMONG THE THINGS HE MENTIONS IN THE CONTEXT ?

BE FOR REAL, MAN.

1 Timothy 2:1;
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1 Timothy 2:2
"For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and Peaceable life in all Godliness and Honesty."

For the sake of "All Godliness and Honestly", "All men to be saved" is the "all men" in two verses back and the "kings and all those in authority", etc., in 1 Timothy 2:2.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

And, since,, as you know THE BIBLE says elsewhere that Jesus Gave Himself a Ransome for "many" that SINCE THE BIBLE DOESN'T CONTRADICT ITSELF,
the "many" RESTRICTS the " all",

which then HAS TO BE EXPRESSING EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS BEEN SAYING IN CONTEXT, and that is that any various or particular WALK OF LIFE, OR RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, OR NATIONALITY, ARE NOT A RESTRICTION.

"FOR ALL" DOES MAKE MAKE A RESTRICTION ON "MANY",
"MANY" PLACES A RESTRICTION ON "FOR ALL", AS TO WHAT IT HAS TO MEAN,

NOT WHAT YOU REACT TO AND CLAMMER ONTO BECAUSE IT LEANS TOWARD YOUR FALSE RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS ON HOW GOD SAVES SOULS, WHICH YOU DO NOT ARTICULATE CORRECTLY, MAKING THE BIBLE SELF-CONTRADICTORY in the process, WHICH IS NOT SMART AT ALL.

 

[Silverhair]

@Tenchi you have to understand that @alan has a special dictionary. He puts in the meaning that he requires and then complains when others do not agree with his dictionary meaning.

@Alan Dale Gross context does not limit the everyone as you seem to think. Christ died for everyone but you do not seem to accept that biblical fact.

The goats are those that choose to reject Christ, they are not a pre-selected group. To go with the metaphor we are all goats until we believe.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Adapted from John 3 Gill's Exposition,
because he knows,
"Jesus is The Savior".

"For God so loved the world",.... The Persic version reads "men":
but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature;

"Because, "all", or "everyone" are not the objects of God's Special Love,
which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it,
the Gift of His Son: nor is Christ God's Gift to every one;

"Because, to whomsoever He Gives His Son, He Gives all things freely with him;
which is not the case of every man.

"Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to,
and distinction from, the angelic nature;

"for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels,
and has Provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other;

"and Christ has Assumed the Nature of men, and not angels;
yet not for the sake of all men, but the Spiritual seed of Abraham;

"and besides, it will not be easily proved,
that "human nature" is ever called "the world":
nor is the whole body of the Chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles,
here designed; for though these are called "the world", John 6:33;
and are the objects of God's Special Love, and to them Christ is Given,
and they are brought to believe in Him, and shall never perish,
but shall be Saved with an Everlasting Salvation;

"yet rather the Gentiles particularly,
and God's Elect among them, are meant;

"who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32.

Romans 11:12 has the BIBLE TEACHING
THAT "THE GENTILES" ARE CALLED "THE WORLD",
by GOD, regardless of whether we all figure that out.

"The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world;
the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world;

"on those words,
""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''

And again (c),

"the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel,
I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''

"and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed,
that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi,

"and that He is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs,
that when the Messiah came,
the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites;

"so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense (the Jews),
the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall the Gentiles;
yea, Hell and Eternal Damnation."

But, Jesus specifically INCLUDES THE WORLD OF THE GENTILE WORLD
OFTEN REFERRED TO AS "THE GENTILE" NATIONS BEING CALLED "THE WORLD".

That is simply what Jesus means, as He means what He says
and JESUS SAYS, "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN",

AND THE BIBLE TEACHES NOTHING ABOUT YOUR PHILOSOPHY HERE,
WHICH IS UTTERLY INCONSISTENT IN EVERY WAY, INFINITELY,
FROM ANY FRAUDULENT NOTION OF IMAGINING GOD SAYING JESUS DIED
FOR THOSE THE FATHER DID NOT GIVE HIM, BUT ONLY THE "FEW WHO FIND IT".

There is no inconsistency in acknowledging the plain statement of God's word above and acknowledging also what His word says about the way to life being narrow and difficult and few finding it. (Matt. 7:14)

Some refuse this great gift and die unrepentant in their sins and go to hell, but this is no reflection upon the sufficiency of the Atonement to save whosoever chooses to be saved.

These words you say create a False Religion, but the Bible teaches nothing about "whosoever chooses to be saved", when it says, "whosoever believes",
Because, "this is the Work of God that you believe",

John 6:29; "Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

as John 3:21 also clearly states, crystal clear, in the same chapter of John 3
where Jesus says "You Must Be Born Again".

"But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light,
that his deeds may be made manifest,
that they are wrought in God".