"All"

[Tom Butler]

In my last post, #20, I neglected to give credit to the source of some of my comments. Part of it came from A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine, by Thomas Paul Simmons, p. 209, published by The Baptist Examiner, 1955.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you Brother Tom Butler for actually discussing the subject at hand. and thank you for not crying the montra //'all' means 'all' !//.

Here are some passages where "all" obviously doesn't mean every person without exception:

A great number:
Matt 14:35 "And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about; and brought unto him all that were diseased;...." Not everybody, but all the diseased.

Your understanding of 'all' here seems to wide
Probably here 'all' means 'each and every one of the set: those who were nearby and brought to Jesus - they were all sick.

Remember that a set contains (pardon the expression) all it's subsets. What is true of the set, is true of the subset as well. In this case 'all the sick CHILDREN were brought to Jesus'; 'all the sick octganarians /if any/ were brought to Jesus'.

 

[Tom Butler]

Thank you Brother Tom Butler for actually discussing the subject at hand. and thank you for not crying the montra //'all' means 'all' !//.




Your understanding of 'all' here seems to wide
Probably here 'all' means 'each and every one of the set: those who were nearby and brought to Jesus - they were all sick.

Remember that a set contains (pardon the expression) all it's subsets. What is true of the set, is true of the subset as well. In this case 'all the sick CHILDREN were brought to Jesus'; 'all the sick octganarians /if any/ were brought to Jesus'.

Your point is well taken. I did go a bit too far with the scripture in question. The main point to the post was that "all" doesn't always mean everybody without exception. This scripture fits your description better than mine.

 

[Tom Butler]

On occasion, I have noticed that my post is the last one in a thread. I have been trying to figure out why.

I have come to the conclusion that the answer must be that after a long thread, when I post my comment, there is simply nothing left to be said.

I say this with all humility, of course. After all, my humility is one of my most endearing qualities.

 

[Ed Edwards]

This is a topic in a debate Forum.

The last poster WINs the Debate!

 

[Amy.G]

Double post.

 

[Amy.G]

I win!

 

[John of Japan]

I decided to add my two yen. Maybe I'll have the last post! :thumbs:

No one has yet pointed out that "all Scripture" is singular here (both words). A 1st century Christian reading this would only know one "Scripture," the OT and whatever of the NT was already being used by the churches as Scripture.

Again, since the words are singular this verse cannot refer to all translations. It also cannot refer to other "Scriptures" (Buddhist sutras, etc.). But it does refer to all of the Scripture the believer had.

Concerning the OP:

Does this mean that "most" are? Does it mean that "all kinds" are?

The singular once again prevents this from meaning "most" or "all kinds." It can only mean "the whole of Scripture" since it is singular.

I rest my case. :type:

 

[Tom Butler]

John, your point is well taken. Sometimes "all" actually does mean all.

Please forgive my descent into silliness a few posts ago. Chalk it up to a low resistance to temptation. My humility is one of my most endearing qualities, but bragging about it is not.

Oh goodness, there I go again.

 

[John of Japan]

John, your point is well taken. Sometimes "all" actually does mean all.

Please forgive my descent into silliness a few posts ago. Chalk it up to a low resistance to temptation. My humility is one of my most endearing qualities, but bragging about it is not.

Oh goodness, there I go again.

Seems like you're the author of that best-seller, Humility My Way. Or was it the other one, The World's Ten Most Humble People and What I Taught the Other Nine. :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Tom Butler]

Seems like you're the author of that best-seller, Humility My Way. Or was it the other one, The World's Ten Most Humble People and What I Taught the Other Nine. :laugh: :laugh:

Oops, you caught me.

I can see now that I've opened a can of worms, and there's no way I'll ever have the last post in this thread. Unless, of course, it's this one.

 

[John of Japan]

Oops, you caught me.

I can see now that I've opened a can of worms, and there's no way I'll ever have the last post in this thread. Unless, of course, it's this one.

Naw, it isn't.

We haven't yet discussed your theme song, the country song "It's Hard to Be Humble" ("When you're perfect in every way").

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, John, I've managed to derail this thread very nicely. And when it comes to matching wits with you, I'm only half-armed.

Later today, I'll try to get us back on track with a discussion of "world." I thnk I can find several examples in the scriptures where "world" doesn't mean everybody on the planet. Unless it would be better to start a new thread. "All" and "world" are certainly related, so unless the mods think otherwise, I'll put it here.

 

[John of Japan]

Well, John, I've managed to derail this thread very nicely. And when it comes to matching wits with you, I'm only half-armed.

Later today, I'll try to get us back on track with a discussion of "world." I thnk I can find several examples in the scriptures where "world" doesn't mean everybody on the planet. Unless it would be better to start a new thread. "All" and "world" are certainly related, so unless the mods think otherwise, I'll put it here.

Okay, catch you later. :type:

 

[Tom Butler]

As with 'all" one must look at context, as well as the specific meaning when the word "world" is used in the scriptures. It does not always mean every person without exception. Here are some examples:

Believers vs. the Unsaved:

John 7:7, Jesus speaking: "The world cannot hate you but it hates me, because I testify that what it does is evil."

John 12:30 Jesus speaking: "Now is time for judgment on the world...."

John 14:17 Jesus speaking: "The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him because he lives in you and will be in you."

Rev 13:3: "The whole world was astonished and followed the beast."


Gentiles vs. Jews

Romans 11:12: "For if their (the Jews) transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring."

Known people

John 12:19: "So the Pharisees said to one another, 'see this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him.'"

Romans 1:8 Paul writes: "But I thiank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world."

The created universe

Matt 26:13 Jesus speaking: "I tell you that, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."
-----------------------
Here'are a couple of verses where "world' is not mentioned, but is implied:

Rev 5:9 "And they sang a new song: 'You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men from every tribe and people and language and nation.'"

Rev 7:9 "And I looked, and there was before me a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb."

 

[John of Japan]

Tom, the word translated "world" here is probably the Greek kosmos in every case, though I say this off the cuff. (I have translated into Japanese all the passages you mention. Now, kosmos has a different set of meanings (technically, semantic domain) than the English word "world."

Here is the definition given by the Louw-Nida Lexicon of semantic domains: "κόσμος, ου m a universe 1.1 b earth 1.39 c world system 41.38 d people 9.23 e adorning 79.12 f adornment 6.188 g tremendous amount 59.55 κόσμος : unit αἰὼν τοῦ κόσμου τούτου supernatural power 12.44."

Again, here is the Anlex definition: "κόσμος , ου , ὁ basically something well-arranged; (1) adornment, adorning (1P 3.3); (2) as the sum total of all created beings in heaven and earth world, universe (AC 17.24); (3) as all human beings mankind, humanity, all people (MK 16.15); (4) as this planet inhabited by mankind world, earth (MT 16.26; JN 11.9); (5) morally, mankind as alienated from God, unredeemed and hostile to him world (1J 5.19); (6) sum total of particulars in any one field of experience, world, totality (JA 3.6)"

Thus, in many of these cases you have given it means "world system" instead of the people of the world per se. It's not really a matter of deciding whether each mention of the world means "all people," it's a matter of determining by the context (as you say) whether people are even meant.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, the word translated "world" here is probably the Greek kosmos in every case, though I say this off the cuff. (I have translated into Japanese all the passages you mention. Now, kosmos has a different set of meanings (technically, semantic domain) than the English word "world."

Here is the definition given by the Louw-Nida Lexicon of semantic domains: "κόσμος, ου m a universe 1.1 b earth 1.39 c world system 41.38 d people 9.23 e adorning 79.12 f adornment 6.188 g tremendous amount 59.55 κόσμος : unit αἰὼν τοῦ κόσμου τούτου supernatural power 12.44."

Again, here is the Anlex definition: "κόσμος , ου , ὁ basically something well-arranged; (1) adornment, adorning (1P 3.3); (2) as the sum total of all created beings in heaven and earth world, universe (AC 17.24); (3) as all human beings mankind, humanity, all people (MK 16.15); (4) as this planet inhabited by mankind world, earth (MT 16.26; JN 11.9); (5) morally, mankind as alienated from God, unredeemed and hostile to him world (1J 5.19); (6) sum total of particulars in any one field of experience, world, totality (JA 3.6)"

Thus, in many of these cases you have given it means "world system" instead of the people of the world per se. It's not really a matter of deciding whether each mention of the world means "all people," it's a matter of determining by the context (as you say) whether people are even meant.

John, as always, I will yield to superior Greek scholarship. But I am unclear how the Anlex definitions differ materially with the ones I gave. I'll rely on you to set me straight.

 

[John of Japan]

John, as always, I will yield to superior Greek scholarship. But I am unclear how the Anlex definitions differ materially with the ones I gave. I'll rely on you to set me straight.

Tom, essentially you seem to be interpreting these passages with what the term "world" means in the English language. Thus, your first three categories--believers vs. unsaved, Gentiles vs. Jews, known people--all have verses that could be interpreted as the world system, as opposed to people per se, as you have interpreted them. In that case, they should not be used as proof that "world" does not mean "all people."

Football quarterback Bret Favre right now might be saying, "You can't fight the system," meaning the Packers' legal hold on him. The Greek would probably translate "system" as kosmos.

 

[Tom Butler]

Thanks John. Now, I need some more Greek help.

What is the Greek word translated "world" in John 3:16? I think it is kosmos. Yet, I have heard many folks use that passage as support for universal atonement. It has certainly been used to support the idea that God loved everybody and sent his Son to die for them all, and save those who believed.

Does this passage allow for that exegesis?

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks John. Now, I need some more Greek help.

What is the Greek word translated "world" in John 3:16? I think it is kosmos. Yet, I have heard many folks use that passage as support for universal atonement. It has certainly been used to support the idea that God loved everybody and sent his Son to die for them all, and save those who believed.

Does this passage allow for that exegesis?

I kind of thought that was where this was going.

Normally I don't participate in Cal/Arm discussions on the BB. I did that all decades ago, don't need to do it again. Plus, my first contacts with BB Calvinists were quite nasty (as was one "real world" contact with Calvinists.) However, I'll make a brief exception here just for you. :saint:

Yes, the three appearances of "world" in John 3:16-19 are all kosmos. And we have already agreed that the meaning must be determined from the context. And according to v. 19 it is talking about people of the world. There is no hyperbole as in one of your examples, John 12:19. There is no geographical reference. There is no limiting usage of the term as applying strictly to the Roman Empire. There are no limiting words (such as "elect") to mean that there are some people in the world God did not love.

My conclusion? Yes, God loved all the people in the world, and sent His Son to die for all the people in the world. There are usages of the word "world" where not all persons in the world are meant. This is not one of them. :type: