Alzheimer’s and eternal security

[Ben1445]

There are some folks who don’t believe in the security of the believer. I do.
But there are some who say that you must examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, be faithful unto death, etc., things that I believe Christians do because they are born again and not to stay born again.

If salvation can be lost, what happens to people with Alzheimer’s disease? They effectively live life in reverse mentally.
Some folks become people who their families have not known.
In the case of medical conditions, are there exceptions to be made and how would you justify that Scripturally?
Or is a rejection of age related diseases or medical conditions damnable?
I do like to know how people believe when the rubber meets the road, as they say.
So here is a real life scenario. A medical condition that affects cognitive abilities. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What happens when the mouth doesn’t sound like a Christian anymore?

 

[Charlie24]

There are some folks who don’t believe in the security of the believer. I do.
But there are some who say that you must examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, be faithful unto death, etc., things that I believe Christians do because they are born again and not to stay born again.

If salvation can be lost, what happens to people with Alzheimer’s disease? They effectively live life in reverse mentally.
Some folks become people who their families have not known.
In the case of medical conditions, are there exceptions to be made and how would you justify that Scripturally?
Or is a rejection of age related diseases or medical conditions damnable?
I do like to know how people believe when the rubber meets the road, as they say.
So here is a real life scenario. A medical condition that affects cognitive abilities. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What happens when the mouth doesn’t sound like a Christian anymore?

When the mouth no longer sounds like a Christian anymore the believer still believes but is in the state of backsliding.

Salvation is not lost, this is when you're going to get a spanking from your Father, as the Scripture warns us.

The loss of salvation is an act of no longer believing in the heart, something in life has happened and you no longer have that faith that saved you.

Paul gives us the example of this in Hebrews, through peer pressure and persecution the Hebrews/Jews were turning their backs on Christ and returning to temple worship, Judaism.

Paul warns them of the "willful sin" which is willingly transferring faith in Christ to something else, in the Hebrews case it was a transfer of faith from Christ back to Judaism. He tells them "after you have received the knowledge of truth ( Biblical salvation by grace through faith in Christ) there is no more sacrifice for sins, (Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice for sin, if you turn from it there is no other way to receive the forgiveness of sins).

 

[Scarlett O.]

There are some folks who don’t believe in the security of the believer. I do.
But there are some who say that you must examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, be faithful unto death, etc., things that I believe Christians do because they are born again and not to stay born again.

If salvation can be lost, what happens to people with Alzheimer’s disease? They effectively live life in reverse mentally.
Some folks become people who their families have not known.
In the case of medical conditions, are there exceptions to be made and how would you justify that Scripturally?
Or is a rejection of age related diseases or medical conditions damnable?
I do like to know how people believe when the rubber meets the road, as they say.
So here is a real life scenario. A medical condition that affects cognitive abilities. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What happens when the mouth doesn’t sound like a Christian anymore?

I'm with you. Those Christians who get very severe Alzheimer's or have traumatic brain injuries and don't know who they are, who their children are, who Jesus is, being saved, how to use the bathroom, or how to bring a spoon to their mouths..,....they don't lose their salvation.

Why not? It's not that the loss of cognition takes Jesus away.

It's that once one is in the hands of Christ, so says he, nothing can snatch you out of his hands.

There is no disease that can undo the power of the blood of Christ.

 

[Ben1445]

The loss of salvation is an act of no longer believing in the heart, something in life has happened and you no longer have that faith that saved you.

There are people who no longer believe they are married. It is the way that some medical conditions affect the body.
Do they cease to be married because they cannot remember their spouse?
Do they cease to be children of God because they have not the memory to recall their Saviour?
Some have reverted to their mental state before salvation. They become unrecognizable as Christians. I’ve not heard it specifically, but I can imagine that someone whose mind is failing may not recall their Christianity and may not know their own salvation.
Where is the breaking point for them?

 

[Charlie24]

There are people who no longer believe they are married. It is the way that some medical conditions affect the body.
Do they cease to be married because they cannot remember their spouse?
Do they cease to be children of God because they have not the memory to recall their Saviour?
Some have reverted to their mental state before salvation. They become unrecognizable as Christians. I’ve not heard it specifically, but I can imagine that someone whose mind is failing may not recall their Christianity and may not know their own salvation.
Where is the breaking point for them?

If they drifted off into that loss of memory in faith they take Christ with them.

They have eternal security through that faith they no longer remember.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When the mouth no longer sounds like a Christian anymore the believer still believes but is in the state of backsliding.

Salvation is not lost, this is when you're going to get a spanking from your Father, as the Scripture warns us.

The loss of salvation is an act of no longer believing in the heart, something in life has happened and you no longer have that faith that saved you.

Paul gives us the example of this in Hebrews, through peer pressure and persecution the Hebrews/Jews were turning their backs on Christ and returning to temple worship, Judaism.

Paul warns them of the "willful sin" which is willingly transferring faith in Christ to something else, in the Hebrews case it was a transfer of faith from Christ back to Judaism. He tells them "after you have received the knowledge of truth ( Biblical salvation by grace through faith in Christ) there is no more sacrifice for sins, (Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice for sin, if you turn from it there is no other way to receive the forgiveness of sins).

No matter how far away from his father the prodigal son was, he was still his father’s son. Even while mingling with the swine.

 

[Van]

There are some folks who don’t believe in the security of the believer. I do.
But there are some who say that you must examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, be faithful unto death, etc., things that I believe Christians do because they are born again and not to stay born again.

If salvation can be lost, what happens to people with Alzheimer’s disease? They effectively live life in reverse mentally.
Some folks become people who their families have not known.
In the case of medical conditions, are there exceptions to be made and how would you justify that Scripturally?
Or is a rejection of age related diseases or medical conditions damnable?
I do like to know how people believe when the rubber meets the road, as they say.
So here is a real life scenario. A medical condition that affects cognitive abilities. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What happens when the mouth doesn’t sound like a Christian anymore?

My family line seems prone to Alzheimer's as my mother passed away from it and now my younger brother has been diagnosed with it. I believe in OSAS, so I have no concern with a saved person losing their mental capacity.

 

[JesusFan]

When the mouth no longer sounds like a Christian anymore the believer still believes but is in the state of backsliding.

Salvation is not lost, this is when you're going to get a spanking from your Father, as the Scripture warns us.

The loss of salvation is an act of no longer believing in the heart, something in life has happened and you no longer have that faith that saved you.

Paul gives us the example of this in Hebrews, through peer pressure and persecution the Hebrews/Jews were turning their backs on Christ and returning to temple worship, Judaism.

Paul warns them of the "willful sin" which is willingly transferring faith in Christ to something else, in the Hebrews case it was a transfer of faith from Christ back to Judaism. He tells them "after you have received the knowledge of truth ( Biblical salvation by grace through faith in Christ) there is no more sacrifice for sins, (Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice for sin, if you turn from it there is no other way to receive the forgiveness of sins).

Think he means those who were saved but due to injury, illness, accident etc are now acting and sounding like they are lost again

 

[JesusFan]

There are some folks who don’t believe in the security of the believer. I do.
But there are some who say that you must examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, be faithful unto death, etc., things that I believe Christians do because they are born again and not to stay born again.

If salvation can be lost, what happens to people with Alzheimer’s disease? They effectively live life in reverse mentally.
Some folks become people who their families have not known.
In the case of medical conditions, are there exceptions to be made and how would you justify that Scripturally?
Or is a rejection of age related diseases or medical conditions damnable?
I do like to know how people believe when the rubber meets the road, as they say.
So here is a real life scenario. A medical condition that affects cognitive abilities. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What happens when the mouth doesn’t sound like a Christian anymore?

Think that God already knew tat would be happening, so had them sealed forever once saved

 

[John of Japan]

There are some folks who don’t believe in the security of the believer. I do.
But there are some who say that you must examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, be faithful unto death, etc., things that I believe Christians do because they are born again and not to stay born again.

If salvation can be lost, what happens to people with Alzheimer’s disease? They effectively live life in reverse mentally.
Some folks become people who their families have not known.
In the case of medical conditions, are there exceptions to be made and how would you justify that Scripturally?
Or is a rejection of age related diseases or medical conditions damnable?
I do like to know how people believe when the rubber meets the road, as they say.
So here is a real life scenario. A medical condition that affects cognitive abilities. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What happens when the mouth doesn’t sound like a Christian anymore?

My father had Alzheimer's but he never forgot Christ and his salvation, because that's a spiritual thing, not a brain thing. The last time he went into the hospital, his memory was mostly gone, but as Mom was filling out the form she said, "Chuck, what shall I put down for religion?" Dad replied, "I don't have a religion, I have a Savior!"

Spiritual matters such as salvation are settled in the spirit, not the body (including the brain) or soul. Alzheimer's cannot affect the spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

Now this is what I would say is the quote of the day.

"I don't have a religion, I have a Savior!"

 

[percho]

You used, " when the rubber meets the road," in the OP. A favorite of mine JV McGee used it often on Through the Bible radio.

Methinks most on this forum, when the rubber meets the road, in reality, believe they have to save themselves and keep themselves saved, no matter what they may say.

I am ultra monergist.

 

[Ascetic X]

My father had Alzheimer's but he never forgot Christ and his salvation, because that's a spiritual thing, not a brain thing. The last time he went into the hospital, his memory was mostly gone, but as Mom was filling out the form she said, "Chuck, what shall I put down for religion?" Dad replied, "I don't have a religion, I have a Savior!"

Spiritual matters such as salvation are settled in the spirit, not the body (including the brain) or soul. Alzheimer's cannot affect the spirit.

I think spiritual matters do reside in the mind. There have been ungodly mind control experiments where all of a person’s beliefs have been removed, creating an entirely different personality. I refrain from linking to articles about this, for it is too horrifying. One of the evil techniques is putting the person through extreme, frightening, mind-boggling trauma, so their personality splits apart in mental defense.

In your father’s case, I suspect he had built the Word of God so deeply and solidly into his consciousness, it was able to shine through the dementia. He likely spent many years studying his Bible, memorizing scripture, listening to sermons, etc.

There are many cases where old favorite songs are remembered and sung by dementia patients who recall little else.

Researchers, such as John Swinton, argue that a person's relationship with God is secure, even when memory and logical thinking are lost, as religious and spiritual experiences rely on emotional connection rather than cognitive acuity.

 

[Ben1445]

Methinks most on this forum, when the rubber meets the road, in reality, believe they have to save themselves and keep themselves saved, no matter what they may say.

But the beauty of resting in Jesus is that there is nothing to do but rest in Him. This is faith. And He keeps us.

 

[Ben1445]

I am ultra monergist

You may recall that I am not. But that doesn’t change the power of God. I see that God has given us dominion and responsibility. I don’t believe God has given us false authority. I see real responsibility in the authority God has given us and as a result of great responsibility, great consequences.

 

[Silverhair]

You used, " when the rubber meets the road," in the OP. A favorite of mine JV McGee used it often on Through the Bible radio.

Methinks most on this forum, when the rubber meets the road, in reality, believe they have to save themselves and keep themselves saved, no matter what they may say.

I am ultra monergist.

We do not save ourselves only God can do that but we do have to continue to believe because God will not force you to believe in Him.

I believe the word of God.

 

[John of Japan]

I think spiritual matters do reside in the mind. There have been ungodly mind control experiments where all of a person’s beliefs have been removed, creating an entirely different personality. I refrain from linking to articles about this, for it is too horrifying. One of the evil techniques is putting the person through extreme, frightening, mind-boggling trauma, so their personality splits apart in mental defense.

In your father’s case, I suspect he had built the Word of God so deeply and solidly into his consciousness, it was able to shine through the dementia. He likely spent many years studying his Bible, memorizing scripture, listening to sermons, etc.

There are many cases where old favorite songs are remembered and sung by dementia patients who recall little else.

Researchers, such as John Swinton, argue that a person's relationship with God is secure, even when memory and logical thinking are lost, as religious and spiritual experiences rely on emotional connection rather than cognitive acuity.

Please note that I did not say "mind," but "brain." Many confuse the two. The mind is part of the soul, but the brain is the physical part of the body where earthly memories reside, that which is affected by Alzheimer's and other brain diseases. This explains the memory phenomena that you described.

On the other hand, the human spirit is the part of the person that communicates with God, and it is immaterial. It is that part of the person where the Holy Spirit resides, and He keeps us.