You lost me here. My argument was that there is a third class of people who were saved initially but destroyed later as per Scripture (Jud 1:5) - which goes against your argument that there can be only 2 classes of people of clearly divided boundaries at all times.
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Am I Calvinist or Arminian II
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
My point would be that there are only those dead in Adam, or alive in Christ, and God does not have a third group once saved, and now lost again!
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Difference is one was granted repentance by God, as in how Christ said they were granted to come to Him by the Father.
While the others experienced an emotional response originated from themselves, the proof being they fell away and falling away into apostasy can also be the result of following doctrines of demons. Those who depart from Christ were not granted to come to Christ, just as John 6 describes about those who at that time left Him. It is described as Jesus knowing who did not believe.
John 6
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
And also the false prophets and false teachers Peter says will be among you. Christ also mentions them as the tares among the wheat. These people seem to show a repentance and a believing but they are false, and do fall away from following Christ as they don't have an anointing from GOd to know the truth and be saved.
Christ has come and given to 'US' an understanding to know Him who is true, something these others lack.
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
For example if you lack the inner witness of the Holy Spirit inside of your own spirit that you are His, and He is yours, then your faith is likely based on sand.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
For there must be a deep communication from Him to us about our true nature. That nature is God created on the inside and if so, then it wont be lacking.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
For there must be a deep communication from Him to us about our true nature. That nature is God created on the inside and if so, then it wont be lacking.
Jesus himself did say 'to Him who has ears to hear"
Think that even among saved, there is a spirit ofBondgae in the sense that they have not yet really understood saved by grace alone, and are still trying to use behavior to try to make themselves "feel" that God still loves them. That is one of the main reasons Luther came to grace, grace, God's grace!
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Jesus told his disciples they would know the truth, and the truth would set them free. How many people who claim the name of Christ, are deceived and actually believing in and following a false Christ?
2 Timothy 3:12-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (When Christ returns there is going to be a lot dead bodies eaten by birds, the great supper of God mentioned in Revelation 19:17-18)
Only the elect will not be deceived, only they will know the truth, because God will give to them an anointing to know and love the truth. Deceived people will worship a false Christ and perish.
Luke 21:8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.
Then 2 Thessalonians 2, God has loved the 'US' whom He has chosen to obtain the salvation who have the eternal consolation and good hope by grace whom He chose from the beginning to be made holy and have belief in the truth (Christ).
There is no such love and consolation for those on whom God sends a strong delusion to believe the lie, they are evil and will share the fate of evil. They don't believe because they refuse to believe as they have not been chosen from the beginning to be saved.
Pretty damning of the whole human race, this judgement sent by God shows them to be what they are, and that is they are of Satan and not of God. People should understand, born only into the world as a citizen of this world means your dead in sin, but born anew into the kingdom of God, now your citizenship is in heaven with God and Christ and that is where we long to be.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Fast
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
yes, but Satan seems to have bound up some of the real saints with this fear of not pleasing God well enough , as they are still trying to get to God by working hard enough, doing well enough etc, I would tend to see this as being saved but confused on what the Gospel message really means!
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The Reformers all viewed the Pope as Antichrist and so then many of the priests and bishops were also not of God to them if they were Papists.
So did some teachers of the church say the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests
Fun quotes here, well they were false teachers Peter mentions.
Saints Say That Road to Hell is Paved with Skulls of Bishops and Priests
“I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.”
St. John Chrysostom, Extract from St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12.2
The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
St. Athanasius, Council of Nicaea, AD 325 attributed.3
“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
Saint John Eudes, attributed.4
Strangest examples to me are those who are really saved, Baptists even, and yet go back to 'Mother Church"
I’ve heard it said many times that Calvinists, who tend to be so critical with accusations of works based salvation – even calling faith a work unless it unconditionally pre-programmed into one from God, and claim total reliance of grace alone for salvation, in fact turn themselves to a belief in works based salvation and judgment in that they must maintain a condition (a standard) of good works to prove their election sure. This thread seems to confirm that this Calvinist’ dependence on the necessity of their faith reliance of their works rather than pre-determined unconditional grace alone as they claim bears some truth. Just sayin…
We're just going around in circles now. You can't argue as a point the very thing we're arguing to prove.
Point of discussion: Is anyone worked upon supernaturally by God towards salvation who then later falls away?
Base Premise: One is still blinded in their minds and hardened in their hearts and cannot ever come to true repentance and true knowledge unless supernaturally worked upon by God.
Scriptural Evidence presented to prove the affirmative of the Point of discussion:
Heb 3, 6, 10, 2Pet 2 etc. (falling away passages) - specifically Heb 10:26 and Heb 6:6 referring to people who received the knowledge of the truth and who were renewed unto repentance once - but still destroyed by God later because of their unbelief. The same foreshadowed truth seen in Jud 1:5.
Logically, you can go one of 3 routes -
1. You could deny the above base premise. I myself believe it is true.
2. You could hold that these people weren't really renewed unto repentance and didn't really receive the knowledge of the truth - you'd then have to explain
a) why I must read these passages differently from what is written plainly in Scripture.
b) More importantly you'd have to explain how there is no longer a sacrifice for sins and how it's impossible for repentance if they are only falsely professing allegiance to God - how is this different from an ignorant, hardened, blinded Paul professing allegiance to God while still rejecting Christ before Damascus?
3. You could call a spade a spade and conclude that these passages do say what they say and hence infer that God did supernaturally work in these people once earlier from which they fell. Again note,
a) I refer to such cases only in the non-elect - the elect never fall away ever, neither can they.
b) God's initial work in these non-elect who later fall away is not to birth them in the spirit, it's only to give them a new heart and open their minds - still in the flesh.
c) And on the Final day, there are only 2 groups of people - those saved in Christ and those perishing in the flesh.
It's fine if you're reluctant to conclude - but let's not go around in circular arguments. Frankly, I don't see what you stand to lose if you conclude the above - what core doctrine are you sacrificing in accepting this?
You could possibly refer my previous post #72 too.
If they didn't really repent and didn't truly receive knowledge of the truth, then by definition they are still hardened and blinded, yes? Their false profession is also an ignorant work in their flesh, yes? How do you then say that these cannot be brought to repentance and that there is no longer any sacrifice for sins?
Let's put it to the test practically. Many grow up professing belief in Christ, are active in youth church activities etc but then later renounce their faith and turn to atheism or other religions before truly being rebirthed by God to become firm believers. I can think of C.S.Lewis but there definitely are more. Would you have not preached the Gospel to these in all sincerity while they had walked away from God holding there is no more sacrifice for their sins and that it's impossible for them to be brought to repentance?
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
In order to make progress, what is it that you hold - were these people's unbelief in Hebrews in ignorance or in truth? If in truth, how did these fleshly beings come to such truth by themselves when calvinism holds that none can come to the truth apart from the supernatural work of God?
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Open question: Why are those falling away described to have been sanctified by Christ's blood? Doesn't this further evidence that God can indeed do a supernatural work once in the non-elect - much like the foreshadowed passover lamb's blood saving even non-elect Israel from Egypt once before their destruction later?
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Open question: Why are those falling away described to have been sanctified by Christ's blood? Doesn't this further evidence that God can indeed do a supernatural work once in the non-elect - much like the foreshadowed passover lamb's blood saving even non-elect Israel from Egypt once before their destruction later?
Particular
Well-Known Member
Do you think unrepentant rebels have their own faith latent within themselves?
God working with and towards lost sinners in a fashion that will have all those whom God intended to be saved actually get saved, as Jesus did in fact die in their place to purchase by his own blood their sure salvation.
From Rom 9:8 and elsewhere, I believe in - God working with and towards lost sinners in a fashion that will have all those whom God promised to be saved actually get saved, as Jesus did in fact die in their place to purchase by his own blood their sure salvation.
I see this exactly as God dealt with the Law - He knew no man in the flesh would keep it and yet He provisioned it sincerely. Or would you rather say that God never intended for the Law to result in Life?
Again, calvinism on these topics creates issues where none are - I have not argued from outside of Scripture when I concluded from Hebrews. If I have, engage with it. If not, reconsider existing assumptions and test each belief from Scriptures - for Scriptures cannot be broken. The way I see it, there is no getting around these conclusions - even if a whole new doctrinal system was devised, we'd still be left having to make the earlier conclusion. So what do we gain in putting it off?
Again, to reiterate, God never fails in anything He's promised. But what stops Him from proving how the flesh rejects His conditional mercy outside of His promise?
Romans 8 would seem to be though air tight that God always works towards final salvation in the lives of his chosen for eternal life in Christ, so no provision made for any to sortra be saved on a temporary basis only!
You're right and nobody's taking that away - what you yourself qualified there is that this assured salvation is "in the lives of His chosen (elect)". And I speak about conditional salvation in the non-elect. Two very different operations of God in two different categories of people. So again, what core doctrine are you having to let go of, in accepting that God shows conditional mercy to the non-elect?
God only deals with his elect on any kind of salvation basis/process, so he gives to each person to get saved the entire salvation package, its Romans 8 in full, or nothing at all!