Am I The Only Baptist Not Thrilled By Mel's Passion?

[Karen]

Originally posted by Frogman:
............
Well, how can we deny the truth of any of this???

They were 'Jewish men who followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching have forever changed the history of the world.

Let's be well advised, Jesus and his followers are no more than a Jewish sect

Ok.

Bro. Dallas

Dear Bro. Dallas,
The person you quote seems to speak truly, although not exhaustively. The Lord Jesus on earth WAS a Jewish rabbi, and the apostles were Jewish. YOU have added "only" to the quote, as your interpretation. I did not interpret it that way.

Karen

 

[Frogman]

We would all be well advised to remember that the Gospel narratives to which "The Passion" is so faithful were written by Jewish men who followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching have forever changed the history of the world.

Dear Bro. Dallas,
The person you quote seems to speak truly, although not exhaustively. The Lord Jesus on earth WAS a Jewish rabbi, and the apostles were Jewish. YOU have added "only" to the quote, as your interpretation. I did not interpret it that way.

Karen

I know.

Why do you think the point is that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, and that the Gospels were written by Jewish men following this Jewish Rabbi? How do you think we would all be well advised to remember this?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Frogman:

.......I know.

Why do you think the point is that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, and that the Gospels were written by Jewish men following this Jewish Rabbi? How do you think we would all be well advised to remember this?

Bro. Dallas

Dear Bro. Dallas,
What I got out of it was that the movie is not anti-Semitic nor an excuse for anti-Semitism.

Karen

 

[Frogman]

The 'anti-Semitism ' is a non-issue. You and I both know that God determined before the foundation of the world to put Christ on the Cross by the hands of sinful men, if he were to have come in the present century, the result would be no less the same.

Don't let the focus be shifted from that claim this is a true account that has the capability of being the greatest evangelical tool in 100-2000 years. It is only a ploy to weaken your trust of the inerrancy of the Word of God and only a means of the Catholic church to validate thier own papal additions and subtractions.

Forget the issue of 'anti-Semitism' that is only a 'blinder' designed to take the focus from the real issue this movie represents a denial of the complete whole record presented in the Word of God as the final authority in all things pertaining to religion. It does this by mixing a few scriptural accounts with the vain imaginations of people not unlike me and you.

The real message they wish us to hear is how that we have strayed from scripture so much that we cannot recognize the fact that Jesus was only a Jewish Rabbi, that the Bible is only written by Jewish men. Don't buy into that one either. The RCC is founded upon the extension of the OT priesthood intermingled with pagan rituals and making a cursory mention of Jesus, anyone who will make such a statement as is found above concerning the Jewishness of the message of the Gospel is nothing more than a Judaizer wishing to sneak in unaware and spy out our liberty in Grace and rob us of that liberty and replace it with the bondage to Judaism with a 'christianized' slant.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Frogman:
The 'anti-Semitism ' is a non-issue........

Don't let the focus be shifted from that claim this is a true account that has the capability of being the greatest evangelical tool in 100-2000 years..........

Dear Bro. Dallas,
To you and me, granted, it is a non-issue. But what I thought your quote was about was the lawyer responding to secular critics of the movie, who only see or pretend to see anti-Semitism in it.

Regarding your second reference to "the greatest evangelical tool", I don't think that and have never thought that. As far as I can tell, only one person said that, Lee Strobel, in a burst of enthusiasm. A shame he will be immortalized for that one overdone thought instead of for his great books, The Case for Christ, and The Case for Faith. I have given away (and will give away) copies of both of them as part of the evangelistic tools I use.

Please don't assume things about all movie supporters that are not true. My family went to church several times a week before we saw the movie, we do now. We considered our pastor's sermons great before, we do now. My family reads the Bible together daily and prays. Usually several chapters daily: 1-2 from the O.T., one or more from the N.T., a Psalm or some of a Proverbs chapter.

I simply disagree with you on what the message and effect of "The Passion" was. I am glad that I saw it. In person, yesterday, I heard the president of Oklahoma Baptist University express his appreciation for the movie. You have every right not to see the movie. But when many other Christians DO, and say that there is something very worthwhile, don't be too quick to write it off on the basis that they are just willfully ignorant or spiritually blind.

Karen

 

[Frogman]

Dear Sister Karen,
I am sorry for having offended you by defending the Word of God.

Please reread the quote below taken from the account erroneously attributed to Paul Harvey and tell me how you surmised that this 'lawyer' was answering the anti-Semitic criticism, that hadn't even yet occurred.

The questions included the one question that seems to follow this film, even though it has not yet even been released . "Why is this film considered by some to be 'anti-Semitic?" Frankly, having now experienced (you do not "view" this film) "the Passion" it is a question that is impossible to answer.

Please tell me how you and other Passion supporters have a right to judge my heart and the hearts of other non-supporters as being a heart so judgemental?

What gives that authority to Passion supporters, but cannot be given to Bible supporters.

Please, continue in your private devotions, hold them very dear, ten more years of movies like the Passion of Christ and we shall witness the reign of bloody Mary on our free shores.

Please, disregard the solemn warnings of a zealot such as myself and dismiss me as being too harsh or judgemental, you have that liberty and for that I am thankful because it means I have the same liberty to oppose what I see as unBiblical even as so many are willing to claim a 'grace' within and extend the hand of fellowship.

Please let me know when you and your family find the passage in scripture that is etched on the author's mind forever as stated below:

One scene in the film has now been forever etched in my mind. A brutalized, wounded Jesus was soon to fall again under the weight of the cross. His mother had made her way along the Via Della Rosa. As she ran to him, she flashed back to a memory of Jesus as a child, falling in the dirt road outside of their home. Just as she reached to protect him from the fall, she was now reaching to touch his wounded adult face. Jesus looked at her with intensely probing and passionately loving eyes (and at all of us through the screen) and said "Behold I make all things new." These are words taken from the last Book of the New Testament, the Book of Revelations. Suddenly, the purpose of the pain was so clear and the wounds, that earlier in the film had been so difficult to see in His face, His back, indeed all over His body, became intensely beautiful. They had been borne voluntarily for love.

Any portion of this, besides that which is stated as from Revelation (btw given to John the beloved in the Isle of Patmos and not spoken either to Mary, nor beyond her to the crowd, according to 'thus saith the Lord), will suffice.

I too engage in private study and prayer with my wife and children. In doing this I will continue to teach them to go first to the Word of God and then to that of man.

As I said before I will say again, this is a tool of the RCC to draw protestants back into thier fold. There is already no reason for Protestants to protest any longer, after all, even according to Billy Graham they believe all the same things as I (paraphrased).

Well, sis, I have said too much and for that I apologize, but I wish to conclude by saying that no practicing Catholic bound to bondage to the confessional booth believes the same things as I.

NOT ONE who calls any man upon this earth 'father'.

I am opposed to this film because it is not reviewed as 'merely' a film. It is claimed to be something that it is not, it is held up over and above and over against the Word of God you and your family study and pray over each evening. The images forever etched into the minds of Christians and any lost person viewing this film ought not to be that of mixed scripture with blatant error claimed as artistic license.

That 'artistic license' will be no excuse for those who have bought the lie of Rome that God will not judge folks upon their own belief but that of their ancestors.

This much ought to be said, that the days of persecuting an uneducated populace will never again be seen. In the next it will be such that the people of God shall be destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Jim Ward]

No you are not the only one, but rather then ask are you the only Baptist, the more appropriate question is, AM I the only Christian not thrilled by Mel's Passion?


Clearly, the answer is still a NO you are not.

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Dear Sister Karen,
I am sorry for having offended you by defending the Word of God.

Please reread the quote below taken from the account erroneously attributed to Paul Harvey and tell me how you surmised that this 'lawyer' was answering the anti-Semitic criticism, that hadn't even yet occurred.
.............Please tell me how you and other Passion supporters have a right to judge my heart and the hearts of other non-supporters as being a heart so judgemental?

What gives that authority to Passion supporters, but cannot be given to Bible supporters.......

I too engage in private study and prayer with my wife and children. In doing this I will continue to teach them to go first to the Word of God and then to that of man.

As I said before I will say again, this is a tool of the RCC to draw protestants back into thier fold.......

I am opposed to this film because it is not reviewed as 'merely' a film. It is claimed to be something that it is not, it is held up over and above and over against the Word of God you and your family study and pray over each evening..........

Dear Bro. Dallas,
I think we are talking past each other. I am not offended by your standing for the Word of God.
If you think that, I really have not communicated well.
I should do a better job in my posts of clearly responding to a statement of yours versus responding in general to everybody's statements.
I did not understand from your original post that the law professor was part of the Paul Harvey urban legend.
But taking the words of the "law professor" at face value, all I still see in them is a statement that The Passion is not an anti-Semitic movie.

You specifically say that you are opposed to the film because it is held up above and over the Word of God. And that it is a tool of the RCC to draw Protestants (and I presume Baptists ) into their fold. What I was trying to say with concrete examples of my family's Bible study and church attendance is that that hasn't happened with us. And that is not how we think of the movie.
I saw the movie twice. Once to preview it before my teenagers saw it. My husband could not go the first time and left it up to me. Then once with the family. Later I asked my family what they thought afterwards. They each had been reminded powerfully of some of what Jesus did for them.
I asked them what they thought certain scenes meant. Veronica to my sons was just a woman trying to help Jesus.
We have not seen it since. Don't plan to. Has it made us want to be Catholics instead of Southern Baptists? No. I am not aware of anyone in my church that it has affected that way, either. Has it given us some witnessing opportunities? Yes. Did God depend on this movie in any way? No.

No, I don't really know your heart. But my opinion is that you are an earnest lover of the Lord, who desires to walk in truth.
SOMETIMES in your earnestness, (likewise for me

) we don't realize how we sound. Did you notice above your distinction between Passion supporters and Bible supporters?

From the totality of Passion threads, I do get the impression anybody who likes the movie at all is seen by some as spiritually blind. Those that think I am spiritually blind are entitled to their opinion. But I am merely offering my opinion back that I am not spiritually blind.

And that in the concern over Catholicism, the things that make the movie worthwhile have nothing to do with Catholicism.

Karen

 

[baptisttg]

If anyone is interested I can send you an excellent critique of the authenticity of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ
by Dr. Keith Lester. It's a 45 page work that is extremely enlightening.

 

[LarryN]

"Cops: 'Passion' Prompts Man to Confess Murder

Friday, March 26, 2004 (Associated Press)

HOUSTON — Texas officials are crediting "The Passion of the Christ" with helping to solve a crime.

A Houston detective says a man who saw the movie and then talked to a spiritual adviser has confessed to murdering a woman. A coroner had ruled the pregnant woman's death by hanging a suicide.

The woman's body was found in her apartment southwest of Houston in January. The detective says all physical evidence pointed to suicide.

He says the perpetrator "was very, very meticulous," wearing gloves and leaving none of his own DNA behind. Officials say the pregnancy appears to be the motive -- with the perpetrator believing he was the father.

The detective says suspect Dan Leach apparently felt that "to have redemption he would have to confess his sin and do his time." The 21-year-old faces up to life in prison if convicted."

----------------------------------------------

 

[Frogman]

Dear Baptisttg,

my email address is

dallase@glasgow-ky.com

Sister Karen,

I am sorry, I do not classify Baptists as Protestants.

You must admit, there is no reason to be "Protestant", with so much truth found coming from Rome, why protest it?

This is the hope and argument of Rome now against the silly Reformation movement, I posted a link to this fact on another passion thread. I will find it and post it here for your convenience.

Our great difficulty is that of course each side [supporters vs. opposers] do believe they have the support of the word of God.

I mean no offense to you. I really don't care who sees this film, that is not my business. I do care when Christian leaders pretend to the world this film is Biblically accurate and the greatest evangelical tool in the last century. Where has the Word of God been hidden?

Why will the world receive a hollywood film, but not the Word of God?

Do we have to make the word of God of no effect in order to save the people of God?

Is God so little now that he can only reach some people through a hollywood expression of art?

Where did God hide his Word? At what time has that word been hidden? Even if unbelievers use the 'excuse' (for that is all it is) that 50 preachers can have 50 different interpretations of one scripture verse, what has hindered their personal reading of that verse, and in reading it, what hinders the enabling power of God to give then knowledge?

They already do not accept the Word of God as anything but what a bunch of bigoted men wrote 2000 years ago that does not apply but very little to present personal and world circumstances.

Then Christian leaders want to go and make a Catholic laden lie to be as great or equal to the Word of God in presenting to the lost the message of the Gospel?

Jesus said:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe which receive honour one from another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

John 5.39-44

Now, don't think I am directing that at you nor any other supporter of the film. This is not directed toward believers but toward the world.

What honour are they seeking? What honour are our great Christian leaders seeking?

Why is the Word of God not able to perform the will and purpose of God among the lost?

Because many are not seeking the honour that comes from God only. They are seeking acceptance of the world to the message, they believe they must work to save the world, in teaching this they have also accepted the idea that Christ (the Holy Spirit) can only operate through 'means'. They are no more than political animals subscribing to the idea that the end justifies the means.

They are no longer 'protestant' daughters against thier mother Rome; and the Baptist has never been.

Brother Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Thanks for posting that information LarryN. I am glad this fellow felt the conviction of God for his deeds.

I am sorry that he believes he must 'do his time' to have eternal redemption. I find in that a works salvation that scripture does not support, but, hey, it does follow along with the Catholic idea, I mean, after all, won't we all have to suffer in purgatory until having 'done our time' we can receive redemption, and probably us blind Baptists the longest.

But, who is going to be offering mass on our behalf? Do you think the queen of heaven will still be concerned for the souls of so many lost and blind baptists?

Bro. Dallas

 

[LarryN]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Thanks for posting that information LarryN. I am glad this fellow felt the conviction of God for his deeds.

I am sorry that he believes he must 'do his time' to have eternal redemption. I find in that a works salvation that scripture does not support, but, hey, it does follow along with the Catholic idea, I mean, after all, won't we all have to suffer in purgatory until having 'done our time' we can receive redemption, and probably us blind Baptists the longest.

But, who is going to be offering mass on our behalf? Do you think the queen of heaven will still be concerned for the souls of so many lost and blind baptists?

Bro. Dallas

I just posted this news clip as information- I was also struck by the fact that he seemed to be confessing out of some sort of works-based outcome.

 

[LarryN]

Here are some links to "Passion" reviews on the Baptist Bible Fellowship's website:


http://tribune.org/Archives/Tribune/2004/April/AprilPg11.shtml


http://tribune.org/Archives/Tribune/2004/April/AprilPg8.shtml

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Brother LarryN,
I will admit, firstly, that I sometimes run my mouth when I shouldn't.

But, if all of us were lurkers, there wouldn't be any BB, would there

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Frogman:
............
Sister Karen,

I am sorry, I do not classify Baptists as Protestants.
........I do care when Christian leaders pretend to the world this film is Biblically accurate and the greatest evangelical tool in the last century. Where has the Word of God been hidden?

Why will the world receive a hollywood film, but not the Word of God?

Do we have to make the word of God of no effect in order to save the people of God?

Is God so little now that he can only reach some people through a hollywood expression of art?
......
Then Christian leaders want to go and make a Catholic laden lie to be as great or equal to the Word of God in presenting to the lost the message of the Gospel?
.........

Dear Bro. Dallas,
Regarding Protestants, I was teasing you.

You seemed POSSIBLY to be including Baptists with Protestants in your post previous to that, and I already knew that you don't think that way.
I too see a distinction between Baptists and Protestants although I don't buy the Baptist Bride and Trail of Blood traditions of my grandparents.

Once again, I will point out that "greatest evangelical tool" is a quote from one enthusiastic person that has taken on a life of its own on the internet.

The answer to your questions is that the Bible is paramount. God is supreme. I have heard no Passion "supporter" that I admire claim or do otherwise. For example, the first night here, a Presbyterian church rented the theaters, tickets were given by their members to non-members, their minister clearly presented the Gospel in the movie theater, lists of suggested Bible readings were given. People have used the movie when useful as a springboard.
You know, I personally was aided years ago by the movie, Ben Hur. Does that downplay the Bible or God's supremacy in my life, No.

Regarding "Catholic laden lie", many people against "The Passion" grasp at straws. For example, I think it was earlier on this thread, someone objected that "The Passion" was too physically dark a movie, that it shows Jesus at the Last Supper speaking to His disciples by candlelight. It never occurred to me that it would have been more realistic with electric lights.

Karen

 

[Frogman]

Dear Sister Karen,
I am not ignoring your last post. I want to say that I have no problem with anyone viewing the film. My problem lays with ascribing to the film what the Bible has not accomplished.

I guess to most what I have written on this topic does seem to be 'grasping' at straws.

But we are instructed in scripture to buy the truth and sell it not.

We imho do not have a commission to conform to means and methods suitable to the lost world hoping this will attract the elect of God to their redeemer.

I believe we have a commission to present the Word of God as we have it. There is therefore, no reason to make it into any format whereby millions might hear the message and might believe.

There will be not one for whom Christ died who will fail to have heard the message and the true unadulterated message provided through the Holy Spirit alone.

BTW, please don't buy the Trail of Blood, I have a copy I will send you free of charge

I understand your doubts concerning that subject.

Nevertheless, history witnesses to us there have always been baptized believers since the establishment of the church.

I don't mean 'infants' or any other form or semblance of a universal or catholic church either. I mean that when the baptism of infants entered into what became the RC there were those present who refused to accept that as scriptural and who required any coming to them to receive not a 'rebaptism' such as they were called ana-Baptists, but in truth a scriptural baptism, thereby being the only valid baptism they had experienced.

If we go back to Paul's letter to the Corinthians, we can learn that baptism has always been a source of contention among believers and it still is. Personally, I believe this is why the fourth chapter of John records that Jesus did not baptize anyone.

Well, I am involved in a debate concerning Acts 11.19-26 on another forum and I have been trying to complete a word study from those passages so I better go back to work on that.

Appreciate your discussions with me, even if we remain in disagreement.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Karen]

Dear Bro. Dallas,

Thanks for talking!

Karen

 

[freakpastor]

When Christ is lifted, men will be drawn. I am disappionted in the "religious" tones some of the posts here are sounding out. Will there be denominations in Heaven? Would those damning the Roman Catholics not be doing the same as the Roman Catholics damning all others? What's the dif.?

 

[freakpastor]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham, but if an unsaved Catholic would produce a very emotional movie about the crucifixion, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."