Amazed By Grace?

[Winman]

Well, you brought that into this, not me.

No one ever taught me what you're saying. You completely miss me with your statements, and are only assuming, and this has nothing to do with the OP.

Who is it I fear Winman?

Oh, folks say this all the time right here on BB, I suggest you pay close attention and you will see for yourself.

Let me ask you, do you think it is wrong doctrine to come to Jesus and ask him to save you? Would that be works salvation?

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh, folks say this all the time right here on BB, I suggest you pay close attention and you will see for yourself.

Let me ask you, do you think it is wrong doctrine to come to Jesus and ask him to save you? Would that be works salvation?

OK. So why lay a charge on me that I fear men? Do you feel that is fair and a Christian thing to do, with absolutely no proof?

Look at the manner you handled this also in bringing it to me. I think you also misjudge the extent of my beliefs, and perhaps in what others have said, regarding your statements concerning them.

God draws people to Him, and they become His people, and He alone saves them.

 

[Winman]

OK. So why lay a charge on me that I fear men? Do you feel that is fair and a Christian thing to do, with absolutely no proof?

Look at the manner you handled this also in bringing it to me. I think you also misjudge the extent of my beliefs, and perhaps in what others have said, regarding your statements concerning them.

God draws people to Him, and they become His people, and He alone saves them.

You are correct, I do not know your heart, if I have hurt your feelings, I apologize.

But do you believe it wrong for a person to pray and ask Jesus to save them? I am looking for a yes or no answer, could you answer that please?

 

[preacher4truth]

You are correct, I do not know your heart, if I have hurt your feelings, I apologize.

But do you believe it wrong for a person to pray and ask Jesus to save them? I am looking for a yes or no answer, could you answer that please?

Apology accepted.

Of course it's not wrong for a person to pray and ask Jesus to save them.

 

[Skandelon]

P4T, your faith has saved you, go in peace.

 

[Gershom]

P4T, your faith has saved you, go in peace.

:jesus:

 

[Winman]

Apology accepted.

Of course it's not wrong for a person to pray and ask Jesus to save them.

That's good to hear. But did you know MANY people call the sinner's prayer heresy? I am on a cell phone and cannot copy and paste, but if you Google "sinner's prayer" you will find literally dozens of sites that say the sinner's prayer is a heresy and that they never encourage anyone to pray to be saved, even though we have the example of the publican praying for forgiveness in scripture.

You don't agree with these folks that call the sinner's prayer a heresy do you?

Do you think it correct to discourage a person from praying for salvation?

 

[convicted1]

Calvinism/DoG/Reformed: Emphasis; God's Grace. Salvation: By God's Grace.

Arminianism/Free-willers: Emphasis; Man's faith. Salvation: Saved by faith.*

* note that the second portion above does not reflect each and every Arminian, but reflects upon some in the BB, and upon others who say it is not Grace that saves.

So, are Calvinists/Reformed/DoG holders Amazed by Grace, and others Amazed by Faith?

If so, who is getting the Glory with these views? Or is it not about Gods Glory but about mans glory too?

Do we sing Amazing Grace, or Amazing Faith?

- Peace and Grace to His Chosen

Brother P4T, let me give you my take on how *I* see grace and faith. Yes, it is God's grace that saved me. Yes, faith is a gift of God. Yes, it is by His grace, through faith that was given to me by Him that saved me. In this, I give God all the glory for my salvation.

Look at it like this. You really need to get to point "B", but the only way from point "A" is a ginormous mountain 100 miles high, and 300 miles wide. The only way to point "B" is through a tunnel in the mountain. We are point "A", and grace is point "B". Faith is the tunnel that has been dug out through the mountain. The only way for us(point "A") to get to grace(point "B"), is through faith(the tunnel). IOW, without faith(given by Him, btw), you can not get to His grace. This does not negate the fact that grace is what saves us, but faith is the gas by which this "motor" runs. Does this clear things up? I think that this is the way others see this as well....but I can not, and will not speak for them.

 

[convicted1]

That's good to hear. But did you know MANY people call the sinner's prayer heresy? I am on a cell phone and cannot copy and paste, but if you Google "sinner's prayer" you will find literally dozens of sites that say the sinner's prayer is a heresy and that they never encourage anyone to pray to be saved, even though we have the example of the publican praying for forgiveness in scripture.

You don't agree with these folks that call the sinner's prayer a heresy do you?

Do you think it correct to discourage a person from praying for salvation?

The one "prayer" I detest is the "repeat after me" prayer. And then they say over the tee vee, if you have prayed this prayer, call and tell us the good news, and we will send you a pamphlet that will tell you how to live as a christian. The need a bible to tell them that, and not their pamphlet. Stuff like this is borderline, if not full blown heresy.

I agree that sinner's need to pray for forgiveness. Prayer is what saved my soul(God applying His Grace when I prayed from the heart, that is).

 

[Winman]

The one "prayer" I detest is the "repeat after me" prayer. And then they say over the tee vee, if you have prayed this prayer, call and tell us the good news, and we will send you a pamphlet that will tell you how to live as a christian. The need a bible to tell them that, and not their pamphlet. Stuff like this is borderline, if not full blown heresy.

I agree that sinner's need to pray for forgiveness. Prayer is what saved my soul(God applying His Grace when I prayed from the heart, that is).

And yet, many thousands of Christians will tell you that is how they got saved. If a person is sincere when they pray and ask Jesus to save them, they are saved.

And I've never seen one of these pamphlets, but I would imagine some tell the person to start reading the Bible and to seek out a good Bible believeing church in their area.

I am not supporting these TV evangelists, I believe most are nothing but crooks, although there are a few good shows that tell the gospel, and there are many persons who have truly trusted Christ watching these shows.

 

[convicted1]

Brother P4T,

Here is a "snippet" from John Frame, and how he sees faith in the role of salvation:

So, what is the role of faith? Theologians struggle for words here, but the word that Reformed theology has settled on is instrument. By this we mean to say that faith, even though imperfect and unworthy, is the means (“instrument” = “means”) by which we reach out and receive God’s grace. Some have compared it to an empty hand reaching out to be filled. As the hymn “Rock of Ages” puts it, “Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling.”

So, eventhough faith does not save, it is the instrument/means that God uses when He applies His grace to those He saves.

Link:http://erictyoung.com/2011/06/03/the-role-of-faith-in-salvation-—-john-m-frame/

 

[preacher4truth]

That's good to hear. But did you know MANY people call the sinner's prayer heresy? I am on a cell phone and cannot copy and paste, but if you Google "sinner's prayer" you will find literally dozens of sites that say the sinner's prayer is a heresy and that they never encourage anyone to pray to be saved, even though we have the example of the publican praying for forgiveness in scripture.

You don't agree with these folks that call the sinner's prayer a heresy do you?

Do you think it correct to discourage a person from praying for salvation?

I do agree with folks about "the sinners prayer" thing to an extent being wrong.

Too many times, and you've seen me write this, we have those who use manipulative means to "save" people. "Would you like to know that if you died right now you'd go to heaven?" Then they lead them in a sinners prayer and tell them they are now going to heaven. This is no more converting a sinner than joining Watch Tower. You never see this person change, nor come to church and serve God in any capacity. (This is the rule, not the exception.)

Now if a person genuinely drawn to God about being lost (not necessarily just "wanting assurance they are going to heaven") but drawn to God to be forgiven of sins, knowing they are lost, and wants to pray and make it "official" that they have trusted Christ, and pray and thank Him &c then I believe in that prayer definitely.

But "The Sinners Prayer?" Not so much.

Imagine Peter at Pentecost standing up saying "How many of you would like to know 100% that if you died you go to Heaven?" "Now repeat after me..." What a total disgrace this would be to the Gospel message and all that Christ did previously. Instead of that he preached the Gospel (the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ) and people repented and believed and were added to the church. There is nothing there about leading them down front to repeat a prayer, or repeat after me from where you are, or "slip up your hand real fast no one looking", and then fill out a card, and present them for membership and all of this.

This slip up your hand secret salvation, no baptism, but you are going to heaven, and no one even knows you are a Christian, assure them they are going to heaven is totally unscriptural and heretical. Now, if some have had one do this, then came to be baptized and bear fruit for God, that is an exception, and a HUGE one.

Those at Pentecost got saved by hearing the Word, they repented and believed and were added to the church. None of the trickery, manipulation, "pray this formula" type of "evangelism."



- Peace

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother P4T,

Here is a "snippet" from John Frame, and how he sees faith in the role of salvation:

So, what is the role of faith? Theologians struggle for words here, but the word that Reformed theology has settled on is instrument. By this we mean to say that faith, even though imperfect and unworthy, is the means (“instrument” = “means”) by which we reach out and receive God’s grace. Some have compared it to an empty hand reaching out to be filled. As the hymn “Rock of Ages” puts it, “Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling.”

So, eventhough faith does not save, it is the instrument/means that God uses when He applies His grace to those He saves.

Link:http://erictyoung.com/2011/06/03/the-role-of-faith-in-salvation-—-john-m-frame/

People are shocked when they hear faith didn't save them, thus the ranting and raving on this thread and a couple drive-bys here and there. Anyhow, they've heard it all their lives and it's not accurate. I think it's high time we educated our people with full truth, not partial truths. As you say, and I agree, it is Grace part that saves, not the faith.

I just happened to believe, all the saving goes to His Grace and His Name.

- Peace

 

[convicted1]

People are shocked when they hear faith didn't save them, thus the ranting and raving on this thread and a couple drive-bys here and there. Anyhow, they've heard it all their lives and it's not accurate. I think it's high time we educated our people with full truth, not partial truths. As you say, and I agree, it is Grace part that saves, not the faith.

I just happened to believe, all the saving goes to His Grace and His Name.

- Peace

You get an AMEN from me on all you posted here, Brother.

 

[preacher4truth]

You get an AMEN from me on all you posted here, Brother.

Now that'll preach! :jesus:

 

[Skandelon]

People are shocked when they hear faith didn't save them

P4T, your faith has saved you, go in peace.

 

[JesusFan]

I do agree with folks about "the sinners prayer" thing to an extent being wrong.

Too many times, and you've seen me write this, we have those who use manipulative means to "save" people. "Would you like to know that if you died right now you'd go to heaven?" Then they lead them in a sinners prayer and tell them they are now going to heaven. This is no more converting a sinner than joining Watch Tower. You never see this person change, nor come to church and serve God in any capacity. (This is the rule, not the exception.)

Now if a person genuinely drawn to God about being lost (not necessarily just "wanting assurance they are going to heaven") but drawn to God to be forgiven of sins, knowing they are lost, and wants to pray and make it "official" that they have trusted Christ, and pray and thank Him &c then I believe in that prayer definitely.

But "The Sinners Prayer?" Not so much.

Imagine Peter at Pentecost standing up saying "How many of you would like to know 100% that if you died you go to Heaven?" "Now repeat after me..." What a total disgrace this would be to the Gospel message and all that Christ did previously. Instead of that he preached the Gospel (the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ) and people repented and believed and were added to the church. There is nothing there about leading them down front to repeat a prayer, or repeat after me from where you are, or "slip up your hand real fast no one looking", and then fill out a card, and present them for membership and all of this.

This slip up your hand secret salvation, no baptism, but you are going to heaven, and no one even knows you are a Christian, assure them they are going to heaven is totally unscriptural and heretical. Now, if some have had one do this, then came to be baptized and bear fruit for God, that is an exception, and a HUGE one.

Those at Pentecost got saved by hearing the Word, they repented and believed and were added to the church. None of the trickery, manipulation, "pray this formula" type of "evangelism."



- Peace

Think , not you, but others posting on this discussion have to still really answer....

What was it that "enabled/caused" you to even be interested in coming to jesus and get saved?

 

[Skandelon]

Think , not you, but others posting on this discussion have to still really answer....

What was it that "enabled/caused" you to even be interested in coming to jesus and get saved?

The divinely inspired message of reconciliation (otherwise know as the Gospel) is what enables men, who otherwise would remain enemies of God, to be reconciled.

That Gospel in John 6 was being hidden from the audience, thus they were not yet "enabled" or "given to Christ," as were the twelve.

 

[preacher4truth]

Think , not you, but others posting on this discussion have to still really answer....

What was it that "enabled/caused" you to even be interested in coming to jesus and get saved?

Most go in circles around it, attributing it to mans faith, or indirectly to God, such as in the "message" but not fully attributing it to Him enabling directly. Somehow it is hard for others to do this, to give Him the Glory directly.

I also recall God blinding some lest they would hear and believe.

Looks to me it is all in His control.

- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

Somehow it is hard for others to do this, to give Him the Glory directly.

I have no difficulty giving God the full glory for salvation and to suggest that those who don't affirm Calvinistic dogma don't give full glory to God is inaccurate, misrepresentative and offensive.

I also recall God blinding some lest they would hear and believe.

Looks to me it is all in His control

I couldn't agree more. In fact, that point is at the heart of true Arminian doctrine regarding our rebuttal of Calvinistic teachings.