America Freedom To Fascism Authorized Version

[Baptist in Richmond]

How many of you just watched the entire hour-and-forty-nine-minute show? Holy cow, that was long.......

 

[carpro]

Well, I don't know much about you, but most people who share your sentiment care an awful lot about where the govt. gets its money from (i.e. taxes). And it's the government that Christ says is the one who the money belongs to, not merchants, bankers, or some nebulous entity called "the market".

Again, this "resentment—covetousness" association invalidates any emotion, like we are supposed to be robots with no needs, because God will fix it all in Heaven, or since He provides, then if I'm struggling, it's because He must want it this way. (Another common pacifying tactic that usually excludes the ones preaching it).
If you really consistently practice that application of "God will sort it out at judgment day", then you should not even be correcting our "resentment". Why bother? Otherwise, we don't want people to just go to the judgment, without trying to warn them of their sin/offenses now, before it's too late, and also have God's will (including justice) be done on this earth as much as possible. This fatalistic attitude actually diminishes faith in the judgment; as if the material you defend people for having in this life is more important than their standing in the next life. "God will take care of that". (Again, that's a handy tool for people who don't even believe in the Judgment to have Christians use in their favor to justify or condone their excess while pacifying the masses). Again, we are all equal before God, and nobody is above questioning. If someone came and TOOK your money from you, then would you care or not worry where they got the money, and what they did with it?

Excuse me.

Im speechless.

That's the biggest bunch of rationalized baloney I've read in a while.

Since when has simple faith in the Lord and his ability to provide for my needs become "fatalistic"?:BangHead:

 

[Eric B]

"Rationalized baloney"? Why?
Because it does not agree with your philosophy?
When you suggest that nobody should ever criticize anyone else, or demand more fairness, that is fatalism, and using God's name to pacify people. This has brought much of the throwing off of Christianity or "religion" in general we complain about, becuase religion was abused this way (while those using it did not even practice what they preached. They both criticized others, as well as demanding more).
"Trusting God" is mostly for salvation (our primary "need"). Christians have lost everything, wound up on the street, and have even died, in which case, his "true needs" become scaled down by those observing (with salvation then as the last resort when all other needs are clearly not met). So we should not casually throw that at people to justify physical or economic hardships he may be going through (James 2:15, 16)

There should be balance between looking towards the next life, and trying to make things better here. It is not all one or the other.

 

[carpro]

"Rationalized baloney"? Why?
Because it does not agree with your philosophy?
When you suggest that nobody should ever criticize anyone else, or demand more fairness, that is fatalism, and using God's name to pacify people. This has brought much of the throwing off of Christianity or "religion" in general we complain about, becuase religion was abused this way (while those using it did not even practice what they preached. They both criticized others, as well as demanding more).
"Trusting God" is mostly for salvation (our primary "need"). Christians have lost everything, wound up on the street, and have even died, in which case, his "true needs" become scaled down by those observing (with salvation then as the last resort when all other needs are clearly not met). So we should not casually throw that at people to justify physical or economic hardships he may be going through (James 2:15, 16)

There should be balance between looking towards the next life, and trying to make things better here. It is not all one or the other.

I suggested no such thing.

Neat spin, but it won't fly. Trying to make things better here by "taking" what belongs to another in order to do so is not only wrong, it's not biblical and unChristian.

I can't wait to hear your next whine.:laugh:

 

[Eric B]

Who said anything about "taking" something from someone? That is the same old cop-out to avoid the issue. You think anyone who criticizes anything as wrong is trying to take something.
It is your side that does all the whining--about others' "whining" or supposedly trying to take something from somebody. What nerve! About all your side can ever throw when everything else fails. Now if you can criticize, then grant others that same right, please!

 

[carpro]

Who said anything about "taking" something from someone?

How else will you get it?

 

[Eric B]

I'm not necessarily expecting to "get" it. That's where the trust in God and perspective of the material world vs. heaven comes in. But it doesn't mean that I am covetous if I think that the powerful are unfair or greedy in some of their dealings, and I say something about it. --anymore than the covservatives have complained about the liberal government. That's all I have been saying.

 

[carpro]

I'm not necessarily expecting to "get" it.

Sure you are.

That's why you complain so bitterly over the "rich" having too much and resent it that they don't voluntarily share it, so you want the government to "take" it and redistribute it more ...ummm fairly.

Question:

How much money or annual income, in dollars, does one have to have to be considered "rich"?

 

[Filmproducer]

Sure you are.

That's why you complain so bitterly over the "rich" having too much and resent it that they don't voluntarily share it, so you want the government to "take" it and redistribute it more ...ummm fairly.

Question:

How much money or annual income, in dollars, does one have to have to be considered "rich"?

Carpo, you are completely avoiding the issue. It has nothing to do with "rich" people. Taxes are NOT stealing. It IS the GOVERNMENTS money-point blank. That my friend IS biblical. The bible says nothing about how a government should use money received from taxes. It would not matter one iota if the money was spent on social welfare programs or finding little green martians on Mars, it is still the government's money to spend. Get over it. Whine about it all you want. Use your 1st amendment right and petition the government. If you don't like how it is spent try to vote someone else into government. I don't care, but this "taxes are stealing" if you don't agree "you're coveting the rich" argument is purely ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that many people do not have a problem with rich people. People, myself included, have a problem with the way most corporations are run in this country. We have a problem with the "individual" status the SCOTUS has placed on American businesses, and we have a problem with our elected officials supporting big business BEFORE the general public, i.e., the people who put them there in the first place. I could care less about rich people, and I certainly do not covet them.

By the way, are the other governmental programs that receive tax money covetous of the rich as well? Why is this argument only used in regard to social welfare?

 

[Eric B]

Sure you are.

That's why you complain so bitterly over the "rich" having too much and resent it that they don't voluntarily share it, so you want the government to "take" it and redistribute it more ...ummm fairly.

Question:

How much money or annual income, in dollars, does one have to have to be considered "rich"?

Don't tell me what I want or why I complain! Are you God, who sees in the heart or something?
I'm not on welfare or in any other position to receive anything from the government.
Gee, another Joseph B!
That's like me saying you must be someone hired by the rich to defend them from all the complainers or something. Why are you so defensive for them, to the point of accusing me of trying to get the government to take something from them? I know like anyone else, that there is no way to force people to be fair, effectively. Again, it's not that I want what they have. (I would agree with what Fillmproducer just said). But that doesn't mean that the problems can't ever be pointed out.

And the issue is not so much "the rich" in terms of some income limit, or something, but rather the powerful (which also would include government), which uses its power to get and stay rich. (So the issue is not even so much the money in itself, but the money is only the cheif symbol and tool of power).

I thought this discussion which got heated yesterday was cooling down, but you still want to throw out accusations of someone's motives, so I ask again, why? What is your agenda that you feel you must silence and put down all complaining against the powerful? Can you make an answer without shooting out some insult or accusation?

 

[carpro]

Question:

How much money or annual income, in dollars, does one have to have to be considered "rich"?

 

[carpro]

People, myself included, have a problem with the way most corporations are run in this country. of the rich as well?

Of course you do and your problem is all centered in resentment of the wealth of others.

Thou shalt not covet is still on the books...so to speak.

 

[Petra-O IX]

Of course you do and your problem is all centered in resentment of the wealth of others.

Thou shalt not covet is still on the books...so to speak.

My problem would not be centered so much on the resentment of wealth of others but rather on how they have acquired their wealth. Granted , there are wealthy people existing today that came across their wealth quite honestly and then we have people like Jeffry Skilling and Ken Lay, are we to turn a blind eye to these people. This ain't about coveting anothers wealth so much as it is to stop these illigetimite rich people from stealing from others.

Thou shall not steal is also on the books too.

 

[James_Newman]

James 5:1-6
1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Oh James, your just being covetous.

 

[carpro]

James 5:1-6
1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Oh James, your just being covetous.

You cut it off too soon.
The following verses in James actually reveal that he was warning his brothers against covetousness in addition to the warning he gave to the rich in verse 1. God will punish the rich that deserve it. It is not our place to take their riches from them to make things "fair".

"Do not grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged."

James confirms what I have been saying.

 

[James_Newman]

Certainly it is wrong to envy the wicked. But you have been saying that it is covetousness to speak against evil men using evil means to accumulate wealth, that if I say a man should not profit from sin, it is because I desire to have what he has. Its a non sequitur. Does protesting abortion mean I secretly desire to have one?

 

[The Galatian]

I'm noticing that the inequities between rich and poor before the Federal Reserve Act were much greater than they are today. If these bankers were so smart, how is it ordinary people were getting more of the money after their plot was implemented?

 

[James_Newman]

I'm noticing that the inequities between rich and poor before the Federal Reserve Act were much greater than they are today. If these bankers were so smart, how is it ordinary people were getting more of the money after their plot was implemented?

Maybe you could produce some figures. I don't think this statement is accurate.

 

[carpro]

Certainly it is wrong to envy the wicked. But you have been saying that it is covetousness to speak against evil men using evil means to accumulate wealth, ...

Not at all.

 

[Filmproducer]

Of course you do and your problem is all centered in resentment of the wealth of others.

Thou shalt not covet is still on the books...so to speak.

:laugh: Man Carpo you are worse than my children! How many times do I have to say I DO NOT RESENT THE WEALTHY?!? Bearing false witness is still on the books too, but that doesn't seem to stop you from putting words in my mouth.