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America in prophecy...

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brucebaptist

New Member
the only church that i can find that ever says America is in Bible prophecy is the SDA's... they say that America is the 2nd beast of Rev 13...

they make a pretty good case... just for the record, i put no value on any SDA doctrines... but this one sure does look sound...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPNTCzJJwUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlS8i5iYprs&feature=related

America was the only nation to come up out of the earth at the time that the first beast was fatally wounded... the papacy of course in 1798, with Gen Berthier....

America claims to be Christian... although there are some solid Christian churches and groups here... this place is sodom and gomoroh and will be judged, which is already happening...

just wondering what you folks think.... if you;re gonna cast stones, at least watch the videos first...
 
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J

J.D.

Active Member
Site Supporter
brucebaptist said:
the only church that i can find that ever says America is in Bible prophecy is the SDA's... they say that America is the 2nd beast of Rev 13...

they make a pretty good case... just for the record, i put no value on any SDA doctrines... but this one sure does look sound...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPNTCzJJwUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlS8i5iYprs&feature=related

America was the only nation to come up out of the earth at the time that the first beast was fatally wounded... the papacy of course in 1798, with Gen Berthier....

America claims to be Christian... although there are some solid Christian churches and groups here... this place is sodom and gomoroh and will be judged, which is already happening...

just wondering what you folks think.... if you;re gonna cast stones, at least watch the videos first...
Click to expand...
You have to use anachronism and eisegesis to find America in the scriptures.
 
A

ashleysdad

Member
brucebaptist said:
the only church that i can find that ever says America is in Bible prophecy is the SDA's... they say that America is the 2nd beast of Rev 13...

they make a pretty good case... just for the record, i put no value on any SDA doctrines... but this one sure does look sound...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPNTCzJJwUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlS8i5iYprs&feature=related

America was the only nation to come up out of the earth at the time that the first beast was fatally wounded... the papacy of course in 1798, with Gen Berthier....

America claims to be Christian... although there are some solid Christian churches and groups here... this place is sodom and gomoroh and will be judged, which is already happening...

just wondering what you folks think.... if you;re gonna cast stones, at least watch the videos first...
Click to expand...

While I believe that spiritually America is bankrupt and will be judged. I do not believe that the end times prophecies in the Bible can be applied to America.

First, I believe that the focal point of these prophecies is Israel. Too often Christians in America have this idea that America is the measuring stick if you will regarding determining the unfolding of the end times. I do not believe that to be accurate. Israel is the nation that these prophecies revolve around. To attempt to read America into Revelation is (in my opinion) reading into the Scriptures (alot). I believe that the Tribulation period is going to be a time of God once again dealing with the nation of Israel according to the covenants that He established with them in the OT.

In regard to the two beasts in Revelation 13. I think that these two beasts (while definitely symbolic) are representative of two individuals, not two nations or other entities. I believe the first beast represents a specific individual who will be the person identified in the Bible as the anti-christ and the second beast represents an individual person who will be the false prophet. I believe that these beasts are two literal people not nations or entities. I think that the phrases "coming out of the sea" and "coming out of the earth" refer to the idea that the first beast (anti-christ) will come from the gentile world and the second beast (the one from the earth, the false prophet) could represent a person that is of Jewish ancestry. Regardless of their nationality these beasts represent literal people not nations or other entities.

These are just my thoughts. I am in no way a scholar on this. I am convinced though that to put America into these scriptures is a huge stretch. While the events described in the tribulation will be global. The focal point will be Israel not America.

I fully expect to get blasted for this, so have at it. These are my thoughts on this, but I am fully open to other points of view.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
I have wondered if America is not shown in Revelations 12.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

In Revelations 12 it speaks of a great red dragon who casts down a third of the stars to earth. I believe this is speaking of the devil, and the cast down stars are devils (fallen angels). It speaks of this dragon wanting to devour the man child of the woman with 12 stars above her head. The man child is of course Jesus, and the woman with 12 stars is Israel, this was Joseph's dream in Genesis.

And there was a great deal of demon possession in Jesus's day. Many were possessed by devils. So, this may have been speaking of Jesus's first coming.

It then says this man child was caught up to heaven and the woman fled into the wilderness. This is Jesus ascending to heaven, and the Jews being dispersed to all lands soon afterward.

Then it speaks of Satan himself having war in heaven and being cast down to earth, and his angels with him. It says he was angry now at the woman, and that he persecuted her. Without doubt the Jews have been persecuted throughout history, but I think this is speaking especially of the end times.

And then we come to this verse where the woman is saved by the wings of a great eagle. Well, of course, that is our symbol, and everyone knows that America is Israel's greatest and most loyal ally in the world today. This eagle will deliver Israel and nourish them for a time, times, and half a time from the face of the serpent.

It then says the dragon will send a flood after the Jews. A flood is the word often used in the OT to represent a great army. But it says the earth will open up and swallow this flood.

This I believe is when Jesus will set down on Mt. Olivet and the mountain will divide in two. It will form a great valley for the Jews to escape.

This is very similar to the story of Moses, and when God parted the Red Sea. The Jews escaped through the sea, but the Egyptians were drowned when they tried to pursue after them. I believe a similar event will happen when this great army pursues after the Jews who flee through this valley.

Anyway, I could be all wrong about this, but the eagle is our symbol, and the scriptures do show an eagle coming to assist Israel in the last days.
 
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B

brucebaptist

New Member
i too struggle to see america as the beast of Rev 13. but the points made by the SDA's can be accurate. i would like to think that America is not the beast but just look around. what this country is becoming is quite amazing, in a negative way.

the 2 points in the videos just stick out to me for some reason... a 'beast' as defined in the book of Daniel, would be a government, nation or kingdom.
so the beast that arose out of the earth, would be unlike the sea beast which would be a kingdom arising out 'many peoples'... AND this earth beast just so happened to arise when the first beast (papacy) was getting its fatal head wound.

then they would work together to help deceive people into worshiping the image of the first beast...

i know it sounds like a stretch but for some reason to me it seems like it could be true. this country is/has rejecting Biblical Christianity for a false christianity.

like obama for example. he says he is a Christian and then gets up and blasphemes Jesus in a speech, mocking the sermon on the mount...

the 2 lambs (in the video) would seem to fit our so-called Christian gov't and so called Christian church here in america. but in reality they are not Christian at all...

i dont know. all i know is that i smell a big rat in our so-called Christian gov't AND in our so-called Christian churches...
 
R

RAdam

New Member
I think Revelation 13 is showing us the two prongs of Satan's attack against true religion and God's people. The first beast is really a conglomerate of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. Those 4 beasts were Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. While those were four different empires, they all got their power from the same place and were really just the same empire in different clothes. Daniel sees these 4 beasts arise from the great sea, much like John sees it arise from the sea. John says it gets its power from the dragon, which is Satan. Looks like the civil, or world power side of Satan's attack.

The second beast from the land looks like a lamb, but speaks like the dragon. In other words, it looks like Jesus Christ, but speaks like Satan. Sounds like the religious side of Satan's attack. It makes itself look like true religion, but in reality it is ghastly and destructive. This beast rides the first beast. It is the woman from Revelation 17 and the city from Revelation 18. The two are in league with each other, waging war on the saints, until God causes them to turn on each other. Jesus said that a house divided cannot stand. God is going to divide Satan's house, leading to the fall of it.

That's just my humble view at the moment.
 
S

scocha1

New Member
In the end I'm really not sure that any of this even matters. World powers ARE going to shift and America will not be the one loan super power it once was and the world focus will shift from us to Israel. If you read your Bible you see that it's going to and has to shift.

As Christians we're supposed to continue the mission that Jesus left us with (the great commission). Should we engage in culture and try to have an impact on it? YES! Are things going to get more morally corrupt? Yes! Again the Bible tells us this.

When Jesus returns to earth, it won't be to New York City.
Besides, as Christians, the USA is not our home.......Heaven is!!:thumbs:
 
ReformedBaptist

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
I agree. I think it is interesting and I enjoy looking at the prophetic word and seeking to understand it. But it cannot be my total focus. There is a great blessing promised to Christians who read and hear the book of Revelation.

I am certain that this blessing is NOT knowing the future. I have seen the wildest speculations and conjectures when this is a person's focus. GOd's Word is not conjecture and when the Word of GOd is unclear to us, let us be unclear with it, and when it is clear, let us be clear with it.

The videos, honestly, reminded me of the drama of the Left Behind books and movies. Rather sensational and emotional, with little substance and A LOT of conjecture.

In other words, I don't buy it. I could be wrong, they could be right...but I am doubtful they are.
 
B

brucebaptist

New Member
scocha1 said:
In the end I'm really not sure that any of this even matters. World powers ARE going to shift and America will not be the one loan super power it once was and the world focus will shift from us to Israel. If you read your Bible you see that it's going to and has to shift.

As Christians we're supposed to continue the mission that Jesus left us with (the great commission). Should we engage in culture and try to have an impact on it? YES! Are things going to get more morally corrupt? Yes! Again the Bible tells us this.

When Jesus returns to earth, it won't be to New York City.
Besides, as Christians, the USA is not our home.......Heaven is!!:thumbs:
Click to expand...

everything that pertains to Christ, matters. all of it is important. no our main focus should not be on prophecy and eschatalogy but it is all important. the end times is not my main focus but its important...

i guess end times threads are frowned upon here... oh well...
 
W

Winman

Active Member
Every Christian is given gifts, and I think some are more inclined to be interested in prophesy than others. I have always taken a great interest in it myself and probably spend more time in the prophetic books than others.

It must be important, or God would not have written it and told us to study it.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

As I said, everyone has some gift which all work together to edify us all.

We once took a test to determine our spiritual gifts. Our pastor explained that every believer has at least one gift, and sometimes more than one. He said that no gift is more important than another.

I remember he said, "I don't need any prophets around here, but I can use all the "helps" I can get!" :thumbs:

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
 
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