Dear Tony,
Thanks for your response. I'll deal with the issues you raise point by point.
TONY>>>> Gavin, since amillenialism goes back to Augustine at least, and further if you look at the earlier writers who did not systematize so much (See "A Second Look and the Second Coming" by T L Frazier),......
GAVIN>>>>
Yes Amillennialism goes back earlier than Augustine. In the century before Nicea Origen was discarding the literal grammaticallly understood understood meaning of scripture and jumping into an allegorised interpretation.
TONY>>>> ...........the idea that amills have been leaned on is not really to the point,
GAVIN>>>> Every generation of Christians, and every Christian personally is "leaned on" by the cultural and political milieu in which they live. Here in America we are "leaned on" by the rampant materialism around us. We have the "God is my co-pilot, I set the course for Him" "name it, claim it" "write your own ticket with God" gospel which we have to be aware of and which we have to judge by a faithful Berean recourse to the holy scriptures. These are the facts of life for all the saints in all eras of history. There is insideous humanism is all around us. Secular humanism is forever trying to get Christians to adopt the world's view of things rather than God's view as we see evidenced in the scriptures. And even in the church, we must face up to the religious humanism trying to pressure us to conform and assume the shape of the mould of this world system. This pressure, can get quite severe. The Greek word "Thlipsis" translated as "tribulation" means 'pressure'. The interpretation of scripture is not just an academic matter. There are always pressures on Christians to "adjust" their interpretation of the Bible to suit the powers that be. Ask Sir Thomas More, ask Tewkesbury, ask John Frith, ask William Tyndale, ask the millions of anabaptists, (our Baptist forebearers in many cases), who died resisting being "leaned on" by the political powers of this world. How we respond to that pressure which is forever seeking to force us into the mould of this world is very much a part of the story of biblical interpretation. It is as much a part of the story today as in the days od Origen and Augustine and the bishops of Rome.
TONY>>> .......and to say that in a Baptist forum, where we as a denomination have persevered through being leaned upon, and kept to our stand, is more than ironic.
GAVIN>>> Unfortunately we have not done as good a job in our Baptist tradition as we might wish to believe. We are being outclassed in Berean zeal for the scriptures by other emerging denominations who study the scriptures, yes the old testament too, verse by verse. The Bible class I attend is going through the old testament and people will do this for nearly two hours on a Sunday morning before church and hate it when the class ends. This is the 'real' Baptist tradition. There are forces on us as Baptists 'leaning' on us to become a country club sort of a church, a social club, a masonic temple, a resource for business style motivational speaking, a political agency for the left and for the right, a church of 'positivism' that doesn't want to be bothered with the suffering church, all this whilst 500 of our brothers and sisters overseas are dying for their faith in Jesus every day. All these forces want to 'lean on us' to reinterpret scripture to take out its "bite". This is the Laodicean reality we live and breathe in. So we need the fresh air of the scriptures read alone with God in our morning and evening devotions.
TONY>>> This comment, "The continuing refusal of the old line denominations to accept those scriptures stating that Christ will come to earth to rule for a literal one thousand years". is a most irritating comment and I think goes under the title of "begging the question".
GAVIN>>> I disagree, Tony. In our Baptist tradition we have championed the faithful Berean approach to scripture which says this. "If the literal sense of the scriptural text makes good sense, seek no other sense". A refusal to accept the literal sense of those six references in Rev. 20:2-7 to the one thousand years reign of Christ is a failure to do that. Let us let the chips fall where they may here.
TONY>>>> Try this: the continuing refusal of the [arminian] denominations to accept those scriptures stating that [God elects individuals unto salvation]. If I posted this in the calv/armin forum it would be shouted down.
GAVIN>>> There are good scriptures to support the Calvinist position. And there are good scriptures to support the freewill/election position. So a faithful Berean conclusion is that they are both right. If we don't understand that it is because our human minds cannot grasp the mystery of the underlying Truth in Christ which gives them a common root in Him. Our minds have been Hellenised by out passage through the Greek culture two millennia ago. We cannot think outside our precious boxes of logical and ideological concepts which we seek to raise up higher than Christ. Hence the endless arguments that go nowhere.
TONY>>> The question might rather be, why is it that apart from a handful of early church fathers, the church has been predominantly amill?
GAVIN>>> Quite so. Our first assumption might well be that because it has been the dominant position in Europe thoughout church history after 200 A.D. it is probably correct. But our second thoughts on the matter might be that since the church was compromised badly during the dark ages the amillennialism and the allegorization of scripture that underlies it is also similarly suspect. Hence or need to go to the scriptures and discard church tradition. That Reformation has just scratched the surface. We have a lot of "baggage" from the dark ages still nestled comfortably inside the church structure like gargoyles. It is too painful and too disruptive to get rid of them, (we think).
QUOTE FROM GAVIN>>> The thousand years of Messiah is mentioned SIX TIMES in six verses in Rev. 20:2-7. Large chunks of the old testament, especially in Isaiah, are prophetic poetry concerning the glorious Millennium of Messiah. We are also told that the whole creation is groaning, awaiting the epic events that surround the resurrection.-Rom.8:22-23
TONY>>> And Rev 20 is the only place where a thousand years is mentioned.
GAVIN>>> If God tells us something once isn't that enough? When you were growing up and your father told you something once didn't He expect you to listen to what he was telling you and take him seriously? I have heard that same comment from churchmen. They should know better than to bring out a lame excuse like that. Do they not fear God? If the Holy Spirit has told us something we need to pay attention and not wait around for him to tell us twice. Many things on the Bible are taught just once. Anyway, here in Rev. 20 is not just one place. God tells us six times in six verses!
TONY>>> And as I have said to Pastor Larry, why is it that in amongst a host of symbolic references, do we suddenly have to take this as literal?
GAVIN>>> We should not make our assessment of scripture not on the basis of the way our Hellenised human minds have boxed it up. God can use poetry to give prophecy, and wisdom literature to give prophecy. We should not limit the text to the type of literature in which it appears. Psalm 2 is poetry, a song in fact. But is it just poetic? No. It is bible prophecy as well. It tells us in great detail about the endtime nationalism, the raging of nations that are, and have been and will in future rise up against the coming Kingdom of Messiah. Every sentence in scripture is to be understood as a message from God to us. We must be totally open to the Holy Spirit to receive what He is saying to us through the verse and not limit Him to our preconceived ideas of what the scripture is allowed to be and what we don't allow the scripture to be. The Word of God is to be respected, unshackled and let loose into our hearts, minds, and will to do His wonderful work within us.
TONY>>> .....unless you are expecting a literal red dragon to attack a pregnant woman, and a strange beast to arise out of the Meditterranean Sea?
GAVIN>>> Yes this passage from Rev. 12 is imagery. But it is telling of truths that are literal. Here is what the picture is telling us. A socialistic angry (red) New World Order system comprised of a world subdivided into ten global geo-political banking regions will rise up out of the nations,(sea) and persecute the true people of God. See. Once the dreamscape in the passage is interpreted it becomes a literal message to us. The text is painting a picture. God is outlining something for His people to know and understand. Just because it is not literal and rationally discerned we are not at liberty to throw it in the dustbin. German rationalism did that in the 19th century. We still do that today. Many sensitive pieces of information are written for Christian saints in devotional biblical code. This world has no right to the secret things of God. We are in a spiritual war. We sail out "under sealed orders". God is giving us information, "for our eyes only". Here is an article that addresses picture of the beast with the ten horns.
http://endtimepilgrim.org/tenhorns.htm
QUOTE FROM GAVIN>>> The old line denominations also have had a nasty record of antisemitism going back over a thousand years. Church history shows us that church sponsored or church permitted antisemitism emerged in the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the pogroms and the Holocaust. This is intriguing.
TONY>>>> No, it is frankly insulting. Shall I say that Dispensational support for the Nation of Israel and the Occupied Territories is directly responsible for the persecution of the Palestinian people, for torture, for economic oppression, and the policy of removing Christians from Jerusalem?
GAVIN>>> We will have to agre to disagree on that issue, Tony. The "occupied territories" so called or "west bank" are Judea in the south and the territory of the lost ten tribes of Israel in the north. The returning House of Judah has every right to take over all that land which was given to our father Abraham. I rejoice that they are trying to hold it in safekeeping until "all Israel is saved/delivered at the end of the age. Mr. Barak in fact offered Yasser Arafat this land. Yasser refused it. Why? Land is not the Arab agenda. The PLO was an Arab construct concocted from the very beginning to destroy Israel from within. Palestine has never been a sovereign nation. Name one leader fro history? There are none. Palestine was the name given to the land of Israel by the Romans in the Jewish wars back in the 1st and 2nd centuries. The Romans named the land after the enemies of Israel, the Philistines. The word 'Philistine' is where we get our word 'Palestine' from. That is what Palestinians are. Enemies of Israel pure and simple. The Paletinians are nothing more than that. Many attempts have been made by westerners to set up factories or trade enterprises for the Palestinians. They are not interested. They raise and educate their childen to do nothing more than hate Israel. It is their only agenda. Hence the escalating bombings of buses and markets especially in Jerusalem, the city of David. Evil spirits are behind this. Evil spirits that hate the throne of David and do not want to see it come. These evil spirits knew that when they saw the bones of Ezekiel 37 come together in 1948 the end was drawing near for them. They are getting desperate.
GAVIN>>>> Do antisemitism and Amillennialism share a common root?
TONY>> No.
QUOTE FROM GAVIN>>> "Christ will return to this earth as the Lion of the Jewish Tribe of Judah ruling from the Throne of David. Is the common thread linking antisemitism and Amillennialism a hostility to the Throne of David?"
TONY>>>> Jesus Christ is the Seed of David and the Son of God. You have failed to understand the Reformed pov that sees Israel as typological of the real people of God, Jew and Gentile alike.
GAVIN>>>> I agree. Israel is not a DNA issue as a heart issue. Jesus told the Pharisees as much. He called them sons of serpents. Yet he told Nathanael that he was "an iSraelite indeed, in whom their is no guile!"-John 1:47
TONY>>> "When they had served their purpose, and Messiah had come",
GAVIN>>> You have presumed to say that the Jewish nation "had served their purpose". Here is the classic replacement theology of the established church. It denies a future role for the Jews as a people. But the house of Judah has gone through great disciplinings in the national experience of the diaspora. The Jewish nation will be saved at the end. Zech 12:7-13:1 ans Rom. 11. Their return will be a glorious enrichment of our ekklesia/callled out congregation of God. Their salvation and return to Messiah will enrich us all. The Jewish repenting returning remnant are the royal jewel on the High Priest's breastplate. Judah is mentioned in Rev. 7. Judah is one of the 12 gates of the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of god, the Bride of Christ, as we see it come down from heaven in Rev. 21. The Jewish saints will provide valuable service to Messiah in His royal kingdom office during the Millennium. Messiah will rule "after the order of Melchizedec", that is as priest and king. -Psalm 110:4 The church quite naturally has majored on the priestly role of bringing union between God and man through the Gospel. But the time will come, and at the very end, when the kingdom/political issue will be addressed agaon at Jerusalem and Armageddon and the Valley of Jezreel. God will save the Jews that the world and the church has rejected. -Joel 2:28-32 He has His plans for them. We need not be jealous here. Our jealousy goes back to Jeroboam. Jeroboam is still our spiritual father to some degree unfortunately. The jealousy we have for Judah will end. -Isa.11:13 Because their are no boxes or hierarchies in the mansions of God. The New Jerusalem is not a vatican. a compartmentalised hierarchical pyramid. Every saint has access to all 12 gates and is blessed by all of them.
TONY>> God cast them aside in judgement for rejecting the same Messiah (although there was a remnant). It is a far cry from that to antisemitism. You must take up with Catholics their involvment in it. Most Lutherans are embarrassed by Luther's stance (but he was a Reformed Catholic). Reformed Christians have been foremost in carrying the Gospel to the Jews, ie McCheyne. And in my own cirlces there have been at least two jewish converts who served as ministers: Isaac Levinsohn and Edward Samuel. Plus think of Alfred Edersheim, and that ilk. Lastly, take note of Baruch maoz, pastor of Grace and Truth congregation in Israel, who is Reformed.
GAVIN>>> Point taken. I agree. they were sidelined. But not for ever. We must not boast against the branches. Because we could be plucked out too for unbelief. - Rom. 11
TONY>>>> And if we wish to see how much mud will stick when we fling it, then why is it that most of the major Christian sects/cults came out of premillennial churches? SDA, CD, JW, and others, and on the very issue of end times speculation. How healthy is a doctrine that seems geared to sensationalism, and self-publicist income generating ministries of the Left Behind variety?
GAVIN>>> You are preaching to the choir here. Most of the western church is in a real mess. As for the "Left Behind" thing well this is truly shameful. See
http://endtimepilgrim.org/acts27.htm
TONY>>> How healthy is a doctrine that encourages most people to spend their time pinning the tail on the antichrist, worrying about every international situation, and filling book stores with books that they then turn round and say, Oh well, that isn't MY dispensationalism, he's not a poster boy for my pov.
GAVIN>>> You must understand that this is the period of history that we may as well call the Pax Americana. America is at her peak. American Christians are fully aware of the national peaks that preceeded them, the German half century, the British empire before that, the Napoleonic era of French dominance, the Dutch trade era, the Italian Renaissance, the Spanish dominance in exploration and conquests, the Portugese navigators leading the way around the world before that. All these kingdoms rose to a peak. Then at a certain point, perhaps of arrogance, they were judged by God. I am an Australian so I hope Americans don't mind me presuming to take up for them here. But God fearing Americans are quite rightly digging into their Bibles just as the British Christians did in the 19th century. They are asking "What is our role?" And "What is our destiny?" They are worried about the nation turning from its Christian past. They worry about persecution, yes even tribulation at the hand of the new world order harlot and the antichrist that will follow. These are all addressed in ways that are sometimes scriptural and sometimes "politico-religiously correct". The problem the Americans face is that they know that there is no big emerging Christian protector nation out there that can pick up the baton if they come to the en of their run. The Battle Hymn of the republic even suggests that American history will impinge on the endtime. America is the big player for Christendom right now. 90% of all the world's missionaries are coming out of the USA. Quite understandably American Christians are asking, "What next?" Some want deep scripturally true answers. Other, perhaps most, want answers that are not so spiritually taxing. If you lived here you would probably have the same concerns.
I wish you every blessing on the pilgrimage, Tony.
Your servant in Christ,
Gavin
http://endtimepilgrim.org
March 1, 2003
