Amillennialism: A Hostile Attitude to the Throne of David?

[Tim]

My last hermenuetical point:
6. Familiarize yourself with different viewpoints from their original sources (Be sure to actually understand other's beliefs before criticizing them.)

Of course Baptist Board helps to serve this purpose. But I think its also important to read books and articles by people who actually believe the position you are trying to understand. Instead, the mistake we too often make is reading a charicatured version of the position written by a critic. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it.

When I began studying eschatology in depth--my questions began with the Scriptures themselves. When I had trouble reconciling things there, I read the primary source books recommended by those people who held to each position. I analyzed their arguments, checking for presuppositions, circular arguments, prooftexts taken out of context, and other weaknesses and set those against the strengths of each position.

Ultimately, I ended up with a greater appreciation for the diversity of legitimate Christian viewpoints on eschatology. I'm convinced of amillenialism (albeit my own personalized version), but I don't expect all other Christians to see it my way.

All I really expect from other Christians is the same kind of tolerance for my view, instead of feeling threatened by it or considering me a heretic.

Lively debate on the subject can be profitable, but demonizing the opposition is not.

Because I've been demonized and patronized by some ardent dispensationalists in the past, I admit to adding a sharper edge in my debates with them both here on the board and elsewhere. I hope you'll forgive me if I've offended some of you that way. But as an ex-dispensationalist myself, I feel an obligation to shake some of you up! Hope you don't mind.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Jim H.]

Tim wrote...

Because I've been demonized and patronized by some ardent dispensationalists in the past, I admit to adding a sharper edge in my debates with them both here on the board and elsewhere. I hope you'll forgive me if I've offended some of you that way.

Nah, not me, Tim! I appreciate the time you took to spell out your thoughts on the subject; you put a fair amount of work into it.
I'm going to print out your posts and carry them with me to work so I can look them over and think about them as I get time. Then I'll post my thoughts on the subject. It may take me a few days, though, looks like I'm going to be busy for a while. Just check the thread in a couple of days; I'll be back.

You know what? I love it when people can just talk about doctrine without it devolving in to a name calling, shouting, insulting contest. If me and you can't agree on this subject, that's fine. I still respect a man that can stand up and give a rational reason for the beliefs he holds. I've wanted to get on the "Calvinism/Arminianism" debate page, but I just can't stomach it. Too much arrogance, pride and egotism. All we do and say should edify, edify, edify!

Thanks again, Tim,
Jim

 

[Tim]

Hey Jim,

I appreciate your attitude! I'll look forward to hearing back from you.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[SGP]

The church is the kingdom that the Lord built 2,000 years ago. People today do not seem to regard the church as peculiar in any way because it is just something that was established for the time being. The Scriptures do not teach anything about a postponed kingdom. Jesus and John came preaching, "The kingdom of God is at hand." It all boils down to whether we want to live by the teachings of the word of God or the teachings of man.

"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Rom. 14:17)

 

[Tim]

SGP,

Welcome! Good to have you on board (especially when you agree.)

In Christ,

Tim

 

[SGP]

We agree on the fact that the children of God are now in the kingdom, but I do not know if we walk hand in hand much further.

 

[HumbertoV]

In order to properly understand why the

Amillenialists reject any possibility for a

literal future reign of Jesus Christ after his

second coming, we must also understand their

beliefs and teachings concerning:

A) Biblical Interpretation

B) The Nature and Mission of The

Church

C) Predestination

D) The Nation of Israel


Amillenialists believe that a completely literal

and face value interpretation of the Bible is

wrong, especially when it comes to interpreting

the Prophetic books. Instead, they tend to

"spiritualize" the meaning of most Biblical

passages that they read. Amillenialist

Christians do believe in the second coming of

Jesus Christ and in the rapture of the church,

however they reject any notion that this world

and universe of ours-which they see as

hoplessly sinful and depraved- will continue

to exist physically beyond Christ's second

coming. The Amillenialists place their hopes

on an eternal spiritual existance in Heaven

and in the destruction and eradication of our

physical world.


In keeping with their rejection of any future

millenial reign of Christ, Amillenialists have

completely reinterpreted the very meaning and

mission of The Church. In what has often been

called "Kingdom Now Theology", they hold that

Christ never intended to establish any real

earthly kingdom in such a hoplessly depraved

and lost world such as ours. Instead, Christ

has already established and is already reigning

over his spiritual kingdom- The Church. The

real purpose for the Rapture is so that Christ

can gather up his spiritual Kingdom-The Church-

in preparation for his final judgment of the

world. Amillenialists see no redeemable or

eternal value for our physical world or

anything in it.


Amillenialist Churches generally hold to

predestination as one of their major core

doctrines. In their view, God has already

made his choice as to whom will be called

to salvation and whom will be allowed to

continue onwards to their eternal damnation

in hell. Those whom God has Predestined for

salvation are termed the "Elect". Churches

that beleive in this doctrine generally do not

engage in much evangelistic activity.


Rejecting any millenial reign of Christ here

on Earth, and believing that the Church

constitutes the already established Kingdom

of God, Amillenialists have completely erased

the nation of Isreal as having any real part

to play during the end times. In their view,

the Isrealites were forever rejected by God

as his chosen people when they rejected Christ

as their Messiah and Lord. Often called

"Replacement Theology", this belief teaches

that the nation of Israel has been forever

replaced by the Church as God's chosen

people and nation.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by HumbertoV:
HumbertoV,

I am a postmillennialist but for most of my life I was an amillennialist. I appreciate your post and concur that what you say is what I believed when I was an amillennialist.

Except Calvinists do engage greatly in evangelism. To say they do not is a false stereotype. Just look at great evangelical movements during the past 500 years and you will see that Calvinists were in the lead - men like George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, William Carey, to name a few.

 

[Tony Solomon]

Originally posted by HumbertoV:
In order to properly understand why the

Amillenialists reject any possibility for a literal future reign of Jesus Christ after his second coming, we must also understand their beliefs and teachings concerning:

A) Biblical Interpretation

B) The Nature and Mission of The Church

C) Predestination

D) The Nation of Israel


Amillenialists believe that a completely literal and face value interpretation of the Bible is wrong, especially when it comes to interpreting the Prophetic books. Instead, they tend to "spiritualize" the meaning of most Biblical passages that they read.


This is an over simple explanation. As with Dispensationalist, we recognise that the Bible speaks in "spiritual" or "symbolic" language, esp in such books as Revelation - I have already mentioned the fact of Red Dragon attacking a pregnant woman. We differ in what is to be considered "spiritual" and what "literal", and indeed the very nature of "literality".
William Cox, Amillennialist, and ex-Dispensationalist, points out the even John Walvoord can't quite establish what is the Amill angle on interpretation in his book The Millennial Kingdom. First he says its all "spiritual", then partly so. But read this: "Most premills would agree...that obvious figurative language or instances where the NT gives authority for interpreting the OT in other than a literal sense would be just grounds for use of the spiritualising method. Obviously some scriptures of the OT and a few passages of the NT have a figurative meaning" (MK p65, quoted in WCs Amillennialism Defined, p16) [Sits back and waits for the inevitable "Walvoord isn't a poster boy for pre millennialism]


Amillenialist Christians do believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ and in the rapture of the church, however they reject any notion that this world and universe of ours-which they see as hoplessly sinful and depraved- will continue to exist physically beyond Christ's second coming. The Amillenialists place their hopes on an eternal spiritual existance in Heaven and in the destruction and eradication of our physical world.

This is just wrong. Read Rev 20-22. New heavans and an New earth. Not guys in nighties on clouds, but a real earth with real sky. Literal enough for you?


In keeping with their rejection of any future millenial reign of Christ, Amillenialists have completely reinterpreted the very meaning and mission of The Church.

On the contrary, it is new comer Dispensationalism that has done the reinterpreting, by calling the Church an interim, not previously planned by God

In what has often been called "Kingdom Now Theology", they hold that Christ never intended to establish any real earthly kingdom in such a hoplessly depraved and lost world such as ours.

My kingdom is not of this world

Instead, Christ has already established and is already reigning over his spiritual kingdom- The Church. The real purpose for the Rapture is so that Christ can gather up his spiritual Kingdom-The Church- in preparation for his final judgment of the world. Amillenialists see no redeemable or eternal value for our physical world or anything in it.

See above. Creation groans for the liberty of the Sons of God. It waits in expectation of its cleansing and liberation from the effects of the fall. It attains it through fire. Judgment on sinful mankind, cleansing on creation


Amillenialist Churches generally hold to predestination as one of their major core doctrines. In their view, God has already made his choice as to whom will be called to salvation and whom will be allowed to continue onwards to their eternal damnation in hell. Those whom God has Predestined for salvation are termed the "Elect". Churches that beleive in this doctrine generally do not engage in much evangelistic activity.

[/b]Not all Amillennialists are Calvinistic. See the next post for refutation of the idea that Calvinists do not evangelise. "George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, William Carey", and R M McCheyne, John Paton, the 2000 Calvinistic ministers sent into France by Calvin, most to their deaths. David Brainerd. William Gadsby and William Huntington. The list goes on.[/b]

Rejecting any millenial reign of Christ here on Earth, and believing that the Church constitutes the already established Kingdom of God, Amillenialists have completely erased the nation of Isreal as having any real part to play during the end times. In their view, the Isrealites were forever rejected by God as his chosen people when they rejected Christ as their Messiah and Lord. Often called "Replacement Theology", this belief teaches that the nation of Israel has been forever replaced by the Church as God's chosen people and nation.

There is another view, and that is that the Church has been grafted on to Faithful Israel.the Premillers and Dispies play up the supposed unconditional nature of the promises to Israel, missing the point that they were always conditional upon obedience.

Q: If Christ came to offer the kingdom to the jews and they rejected it, so God had to resort to a plan B, and establish the church, putting off the Jewish Kingdom for a while, how can any Arminian Dispie belive that next time they won't reject it again?

 

[Tim]

HumbertoV,

You need to try my sixth principle of hermenuetics--i.e. read about a position from people who actually believe it rather than from critics who caricature it.

Tony,

Glad you're feeling better. Your post above was right on the money.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[SGP]

Israel is no more peculiar to the purpose of God than the United States.

 

[Tim]

SGP,

It seems we might have more in common than you thought. In fact, if you called yourself SGPP--then we might even be on the same wavelength.

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim

 

[Gavin]

Dear Tony,

Have you had time to think about what we discussed up above?

Blessings,

Gavin
http://endtimepilgrim.org

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. Futurists need to get over their love for this future seven-year drama obsession.

 

[tyndale1946]

Who am I to argue with Jesus Christ... He did tell those Jews... This was the Last Days!... Matthew 24 fulfilled!... Definately

... Then I'm a amil partial preterist!... I see the ranks of our PB brethren is slowly growing... Welcome SGP... From North Carolina... Home for a lot of Old School Baptist ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[Jim H.]

Hi, Tim.
It's took me longer to get back online than I thought it would. With the war started, I find it hard to peel my eyes off of the TV when I've got a spare minute or two.
But, anyway, back to our discussion; I wanted to address the whole subject in one post. Now I realize it ain't gonna happen. I just don't have the time right now. So, I'll look at one particular topic right now, post that, and come back later with more.

You wrote,

If we summarize the O.T. Scriptures on the subject we get the impression that the kingdom is based in Jerusalem. We also get the impression that the kingdom comes right after Christ's first advent. So the O.T. alone leaves us with a dilemna--history does not seem to bear out this scenario. It can be reconciled in one of two ways--either the language about Jerusalem is typological--pointing to a spiritual Jerusalem, or the prophetic timetables contain vast unmentioned gaps.
The N.T. emphasizes the SOON coming of a spiritual kingdom. The weight of evidence favors the timing of the eternal kingdom coming, as the O.T. had indicated, immediately after Christ's first advent. The N.T. also reveals much of the typology about the nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem. The typological use of Israel in the N.T. reconciles the O.T. dilemna. So the "big picture" favors us viewing the kingdom as ultimately spiritual in nature. This does not rule out a physical kingdom, but the N.T. seems to make it a less significant possibility.

This part made the lights start going off in my head. I began to realize where some of the difference in our views was. Your view of the kingdom seems to be an "either/or" proposition. I don't look at it that way. The way I understand the kingdom is to start in the OT and follow the teaching straight through the NT. Let me show you...

Gen 49:9-10 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? (10) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Here in Gen., we see the mention of a sceptre. A sceptre is the property of a king. A king is the ruler of a kingdom. It's promised to the line of Judah. David was from the tribe of Judah.
Now, we follow the trail farther...

2Sa 7:11-16 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. (12) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. (13) He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (14) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (15) But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. (16) And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

In the above passage, we see the promise of a "house", or dynasty, to David. We see an offspring of David who would build a house to God, who's kingdom would be established forever. This, we know, was Solomon. We also see that the kingdom would not depart from Solomon's line like it did from Saul's.
Now we follow the promise farther...

1Ki 6:11-13 And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, (12) Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: (13) And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

And...

1Ki 9:4-9 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: (5) Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. (6) But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: (7) Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: (8) And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? (9) And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

Now the picture begins to clear up.We have conditions placed on Solomon's kingdom. The condition is obedience to God. Of course, Israel was not obedient. If we look farther, we will find the suspension of the kingdom of the nation Israel because of disobedience.

Eze 21:9-13 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished: (10) It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree. (11) And he hath given it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer. (12) Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh. (13) Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.

And...

Eze 21:26-27 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. (27) I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

Look closely at the word "rod". It is the Hebrew word for sceptre. It is so translated in the NKJV and others. These passages in Ezekiel is God's warning of impending doom on Jerusalem. Babylon is coming. Time is up for the physical kingdom of Israel in Jerusalem. Ezekiel asks; "so what if the sword (Babylon) dispises the rod (sceptre)? It shall be no more." Then he clarifies in verse 27, "it shall be no more, until He comes whose right it is, and I will give it to Him."

I'm going to stop right there for now. Duty calls elsewhere. But let's think on where we are at this stage of the kingdom. A kingdom was promised. Later, it was promised to the offspring of David. It was promised to be an everlasting kingdom. Solomon was warned that the promise of the kingdom continuing in it's current phase was predicated on obedience to God. Neither Solomon nor Israel was obedient. Israel's captivity by Babylon was punishment for the nation's refusal to obey. Ezekiel plainly told Jerusalem that the sceptre would be taken by the sword and would be no more until a certain one came to whom it belonged, and then it would be given to Him.
The next time I get to post, we'll pick up there and see where the kingdom shows up next.
'Til then;
Jim.

 

[Tim]

Hi Jim,

I agree about the war. Yesterday I actually sat down and watched TV for about two or three hours in the afternoon non-stop. I think the last time I did that was 9/11.

Anyway, I'm with you so far on tracing the physical kingdom with the house of David. I don't think we disagree there. That physical kingdom was destined for destruction, yet God would maintain continuity of the kingly line through the "son of David", Christ. But while the physical kingdom would be destroyed, the eternal spiritual kingdom would come, (Amos 9:8-12, realized as fulfilled by James in Acts 15:15-18).

My point in the original post was regarding those O.T. promises of the everlasting nature of the kingdom seemingly centered in Jerusalem. A typical example would be found in Psalm 2--especially when we compare that to a prophecy like Daniel 7:15-28.

I'll look forward to your continuing comments. Don't feel rushed. After all, there's a war on--it seems our disagreement pales by comparison.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Jim H.]

Hi, Tim. Yes, believe it or not, it's me. I haven't forgot about our discussion, I just haven't been on the computer lately. I've started #2 installment of my reply on a "word pad" folder and I'm working on it when I get time. I'll eventually get it finished. Thanks for being patient.
I just had a minute to get on here and check my mail, and came over here to make sure our thread was still up.

You wouldn't believe what all I've had to do the last few weeks, so I won't bother telling you.

April 27th, I'm to be ordained as a deacon, I'd sure appreciate your prayers. There will be some unsaved family members present and I've been praying hard for a movement of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Please remember to pray with me for them, and also pray that I'll be pleasing to the Lord as I take on the duties of a deacon.
I'm as nervous as a cat in a room full of bulldogs!

In Him,
Jim

 

[Tim]

Jim H.

I thought you'd forgotten our discussion! Thanks for getting back, I'll wait patiently for you, you may need to do the same for me.

Sounds like great oppportunities for you ahead, I'll be thinking of you. Have a blessed Resurrection Sunday.

In Christ--now ascended to the throne,

Tim

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by SGP:
Israel is no more peculiar to the purpose of God than the United States.

I was amazed at this and realized I was out of the country when this post was made. But now it has been brought back into play.

If that is true, either God is a liar or . . .