amillennialism today

[TCGreek]

And just for balance, I converted from premil (dispy) to amil.

JD,

Quite a shift!

I consider myself historic premil not dspy.

 

[Ed Edwards]

My Pastor went to Seminary at SouthWestern Seminary
in Fort Worth in the early & mid 1960s. He says
the professors were nearly 100% a-millennial
but now (early 1990s) are about ½ pre-millennial;
½ a-millennial. Needless to say, these a-millennialists
did believe in a physical/literal Second Coming of Jesus.
(Whereas a-millennials believe in a spiritual only
Millennial Messanic Kingdom some believe in
a physical/literal Second Coming of Jesus only
at the end of the Tribulation period.
By contrast, pre-millenialists can believe
in a pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection
OR a post-tribulation Second Coming of Jesus
accompanied by a Rapture/Resurrection.
(I guess I should say 'Resurrection/Rapture' for the
Ressuration happens first, but most people use 'Rapture'
only.

My polls I've taken show that more post-trib onlyists
come from the pre-tribulation position which they
were taught. There are though, a few who started
out post-trib onlyists from either a pre-millenial or
a-millenial position.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Can you name one fundamentalist who is amill? I can't think of one

Strange, I've talked to them on the BB = Baptist Board.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I think your absolutely right frogman. I run into so many
people that couldn't give one bit of scripture other than
the 20th chap of revelation, but hang their beliefs on what
some man has written on the subject. Many millions of dollars
have been spent on what some man has to say about doctrine,
but the best way to get understanding is to call out humbly
to God in prayer. For example Daniel fasted and prayed
for 21 days to get understanding. When faced
with tough scripture there is no substitute
for good old fashioned prayer.

How ever, I note the resistance one will get when one
expounds on what the Holy Spirit told one. Check out Google
for posts by Ed containing the word rapture (on baptistboard.com )
and you will be the resistance to my learned-from-the-Bible
'theory' of Eschatology.

I get 1280 hits today on Google for:

rapture "Ed Edwards" site:baptistboard.com

(And 2960 hits today for my most popular subject:

KJV "Ed Edwards" site:baptistboard.com )

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Please can you be humble yourself before people and God, ok.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[go2church]

We are clearly not defining fundamentalists the same. One of the marks of fundamentalism historically speaking is advocating for a premill understanding of eschatology. There are still many groups that require such to be "in good fellowship" Baptist Bible Fellowship (and all the unlimited splinter groups from the BBF), Conservative Baptist, General Association of Regular Baptists as examples

In many conservative churches many folks don't even know there is another way of viewing eschatology. If it was good enough for Scofield it is good enough for me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Add Jesus to the Spiritual Kingdom. That is the only way you can worship Him is in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[J.D.]

We are clearly not defining fundamentalists the same. One of the marks of fundamentalism historically speaking is advocating for a premill understanding of eschatology. There are still many groups that require such to be "in good fellowship" Baptist Bible Fellowship (and all the unlimited splinter groups from the BBF), Conservative Baptist, General Association of Regular Baptists as examples

In many conservative churches many folks don't even know there is another way of viewing eschatology. If it was good enough for Scofield it is good enough for me.

Fundamentalism originally was a movement that intended to unite biblical inerrantists of all varieties, including calvinists and amil's, against the onslaught of liberals and higher textual critics. In a lot of places it was taken over by bigoted authoritarian hyper-separatists that had large followings and they redefined fundamentalism to suite their own peculiarities and forbad the title to anyone not in lock-step with their particular views.

 

[treed]

We are clearly not defining fundamentalists the same. One of the marks of fundamentalism historically speaking is advocating for a premill understanding of eschatology. There are still many groups that require such to be "in good fellowship" Baptist Bible Fellowship (and all the unlimited splinter groups from the BBF), Conservative Baptist, General Association of Regular Baptists as examples

In many conservative churches many folks don't even know there is another way of viewing eschatology. If it was good enough for Scofield it is good enough for me.

I am aware of many churches that are fundamentalist and hold to the amill side of things. In fact the churches in the area that i live in which are premill are considered very much on the liberal side. But I'm sure that there is variation in different parts of the country.

 

[go2church]

Fundamentalism at it's core is a (often times convenient) adherence to the "literal" interpretation of scripture. It rose up to counter much of the higher criticism coming over from Europe in particular. Well, it doesn't take long going down the "literal" road before you end up at Dispensationalism of some sort. People are very reluctant to examine another view of eschatology because they have become convinced that to do so is to demean the scripture in some shape or form. Which is extremely unfortunate, because after examination, Dispensationalism is the form of eschatology that ends up demeaning scripture.

 

[J.D.]

Fundamentalism at it's core is a (often times convenient) adherence to the "literal" interpretation of scripture. It rose up to counter much of the higher criticism coming over from Europe in particular. Well, it doesn't take long going down the "literal" road before you end up at Dispensationalism of some sort. People are very reluctant to examine another view of eschatology because they have become convinced that to do so is to demean the scripture in some shape or form. Which is extremely unfortunate, because after examination, Dispensationalism is the form of eschatology that ends up demeaning scripture.

I think historic premil interpretation is just as "literal" as dispy is, the difference being the view of the "covenant", whether it belongs to national/ethnic Israel (dispy) or the Church (hpremil). The idea that Christ in some way has not fulfilled the promises to national/ethnic Israel is what turn me against dispensationalism and started my migration to the amil position.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Dispensationalism is the form of eschatology that ends up demeaning scripture.

Why is that?

 

[treed]

I think historic premil interpretation is just as "literal" as dispy is, the difference being the view of the "covenant", whether it belongs to national/ethnic Israel (dispy) or the Church (hpremil). The idea that Christ in some way has not fulfilled the promises to national/ethnic Israel is what turn me against dispensationalism and started my migration to the amil position.

I do not believe that there is a difference made between Jew and Gentile. Paul the apostle said that all are condluded in unbelief. Salvation is of the Jew first because THEY were given the Law and the Prophets. But this does not mean that there is a exception given to them.

For Jesus himself when he looked upon Jerusalem said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Saying that God has somehow failed to deliver his promise and has reserved another day(The Kingdom Age)for National Israel ignores what the Scriptures teach.

Paul in the 10th chap of Romans esplained that his heart"s desire was that Israel might be saved. He noted that they had a zeal of God but not according to knowledge. They being ignorent to God" righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, had not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. they had stumbled at the stumblingstone.

 

[go2church]

I don't know what you would call using the Old Testament to interperate the New Testament and "applying" the Gospels to an Old Testament understanding, creating an escapist mentality with a promised rapture and having two ways of being saved, one for the Gentile and one for the Jew, but I call it demeaning (To debase; to lower; to degrade)

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't know what you would call ...

I'll take a stab.

l using the Old Testament to interperate the New Testament

Good hermeneutics

and "applying" the Gospels to an Old Testament understanding

What else would you apply the gospels too? The gospels were written describing life that was lived in an OT context.

creating an escapist mentality with a promised rapture

I don't think it is an escapist mentality to see a pretribulational rapture, particularly given teh biblical support for it.

and having two ways of being saved, one for the Gentile and one for the Jew,

You call that heresy. Dispensationalism does not teach that.

but I call it demeaning (To debase; to lower; to degrade)

That's unfortunate.

 

[treed]

While premillennialism has been around since post apostolic times, originally called Chiliasm(greek), Dispensationalism has only surfaced in the last two centuries. I am not compelled to swallow it hook, line,and sinker because C.I. Scofield spread it's message with his study Bible.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Dispensationalism has only surfaced in the last two centuries.

Not exactly true. The tenets of dispenstionalism have been around far longer than that, and it is solidly rooted in Scripture.

I am not compelled to swallow it hook, line,and sinker because C.I. Scofield spread it's message with his study Bible.

I agree.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Dispensationalism has only surfaced in the last two centuries.

Not exactly true. The tenets of dispenstionalism
have been around far longer than that, and it
is solidly rooted in Scripture.

Amen, Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Here are some 18th century (1701-1800) words
written over two centuries ago.
Those 18th Century words are based on First
Century (0001-0100) words written in Greek.
-------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

-----------------------------------------

IMHO Dispensation means nothing more than
what the scriptures say.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//and having two ways of being saved, one for the Gentile and one for the Jew//

good straman bashing, slashing, and demolitiion.
To bad it has nothing to do with anything anybody
else said. Personally I use the eschatology that
God has given me - not the one that Scofield
used. (in 1963 I married a lady who had a KJV1769
with the Scofield notes in it. I did read them.
When that lady died in 1999, I gave the
Bible to her sister.) I had the nKJV with
the Scofield new notes in it.

Strange, I just checked the four verses noted
in Post #38 in Scofield. He doesn't say anything
about any of the verses. The nKJV
translates 'the Greek word from which
we get economy' as 'stewardship' in three
of the verses and as 'dispensation' in only one
(with a 'literally stewardship' footnote).

-------------------------------------
I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

-------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

//and having two ways of being saved,
one for the Gentile and one for the Jew//

Oops, I got sidetracked there

There is one way for gentiles in the Church age to
get saved:

Rom 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God raised him vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:

(you did get the 'up' part right? -- tain't in the
KJVs )

But when the mostly gentile church (and the
Messanic Jews) gets taken out of the earth &
off the earth, then here is how the Jews will get
saved:

144,000 Messanic Jews that were raptured2 with
the gentiles at the pretirubulation rapture1/resurrection1
will be rewarded with helping Jesus on the
earth during the Tribualtin period (and I'm sure the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom) -- they will teach on
earth during the first half of the Tribulation period
(½ of 7 = 3½-years). Anyway, at the midtribulation
crises, the Antichrist will go into the newly
rebuilt temple (built by non-believing Jews).
When the Antichrist foolishly proclaims himself
as being G-d, nearly every Jew will
see that Jesus is the Messiah: the cornerstone
that the builders (the first century Jewish
Leadership) rejected, see that He is the real
Messiah (call Jesus 'Lord') and believe that God
has raised Him from the dead. Sorry lame strawman,
there is ONE AND ONLY ONE way to get saved:
via Messiah Yeshua, Ben Yoseph, Carpenter of Nazareth.