Amillennialism

[Amy.G]

The Holy Spirit.

Thanks Marcia! I was starting to feel neglected! :laugh:

Yes, some say the Holy Spirit. I read an article last night that said the restrainer is the church.


Edit: since this thread has sorta pooped out, (everyone) feel free to talk about anything you want regarding the end times and the order of things.

This is the hardest subject I have ever encountered in the Bible.

 

[Marcia]

Thanks Marcia! I was starting to feel neglected! :laugh:

Been there!

Yes, some say the Holy Spirit. I read an article last night that said the restrainer is the church.

Well, since the church is the believers and they have the Holy Spirit, in a sense it's almost the same thing - church removed, Holy Spirit removed.

Edit: since this thread has sorta pooped out, (everyone) feel free to talk about anything you want regarding the end times and the order of things.

This is the hardest subject I have ever encountered in the Bible

I agree endtimes is hard. I have not really studied the endtimes views that much - just picked up things here and there.

If you want responses, you may have to start a new thread with a more provocative title like "The Rapture vs. Other Views" or "Where does the Bible show there will be a rapture?" Or "Are Post Toasties Toast?" (The latter because there's a joke that people who believe in the rapture are so rapture ready they will not eat Post Toasties).


Maybe "Amillieinism" just puts people to sleep. :laugh:

 

[Jim1999]

Perhaps when you have hashed over all the existing viewpoints, you will consider panmillennialism.....Whatever the Lord willed will PAN out in the end.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Amy.G]

Perhaps when you have hashed over all the existing viewpoints, you will consider panmillennialism.....Whatever the Lord willed will PAN out in the end.

Cheers,

Jim

:laugh: Amen Jim!

I like the Panmillennialism! I think I'll just stick with that!

 

[Benjamin]

Bump.


So.....does anyone know who or what is restraining in 2 Thess. 2:6-7?

Think I’ll stay away from a theoretical exposition but these passages might be what you’re looking for; (he who letteth) some say it’s the HS being the restrainer, but I tend to think it is Michael.

(1Jo 2:18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


(2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(2Th 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,



(Rev 12:7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

(Rev 12:8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


It might depend who one thinks this angel is, chain in hand.

(Rev 20:1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


(Dan 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[Amy.G]

Think I’ll stay away from a theoretical exposition but these passages might be what you’re looking for; (he who letteth) some say it’s the HS being the restrainer, but I tend to think it is Michael.

(1Jo 2:18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


(2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(2Th 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,



(Rev 12:7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

(Rev 12:8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


It might depend who one thinks this angel is, chain in hand.

(Rev 20:1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


(Dan 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Interesting. I haven't heard that before. Have you done any research on who the angel is that bound the dragon?

 

[Benjamin]

Interesting. I haven't heard that before. Have you done any research on who the angel is that bound the dragon?

I've debated this long ago. Maybe even as far back as with Webdog when he was a newbie. :laugh: I might have some of the files, but my many files are such an un-organized mess I can't seem to find anything. Now, if I start re-writing this I will have to do a bunch of homework to back up my claims here; and being overwhelmed with a full college load right now I'm sick of homework. Sorry, but I think someone else will have to battle this one.

 

[Marcia]

I think many believe the angel is Christ. This is not saying that Christ is an angel but "angel" here is being used in its generic sense of being a "messenger," which is what "angel" means. It seems that only Christ could bind Satan.

And some may think it's the Archangel Michael.

It could be that Jesus sends and empowers Michael to do this.

I think these passages may be what led JWs and SDAs to believe Jesus and the Archangel Michael were one and the same (this was an early teaching of the SDA church, not sure if they still hold it).

Of course, I think Michael and Jesus are distinct!

 

[Amy.G]

I've debated this long ago. Maybe even as far back as with Webdog when he was a newbie. :laugh: I might have some of the files, but my many files are such an un-organized mess I can't seem to find anything. Now, if I start re-writing this I will have to do a bunch of homework to back up my claims here; and being overwhelmed with a full college load right now I'm sick of homework. Sorry, but I think someone else will have to battle this one.

Ah, come on Benjamin! You don't need school, the BB is much more important! :laugh:

Maybe you could offer a link to your discussion on the BB. (If you have time of course.)

 

[Amy.G]

I think many believe the angel is Christ. This is not saying that Christ is an angel but "angel" here is being used in its generic sense of being a "messenger," which is what "angel" means. It seems that only Christ could bind Satan.

And some may think it's the Archangel Michael.

It could be that Jesus sends and empowers Michael to do this.

I think these passages may be what led JWs and SDAs to believe Jesus and the Archangel Michael were one and the same (this was an early teaching of the SDA church, not sure if they still hold it).

Of course, I think Michael and Jesus are distinct!

I did read an article that said that the angel could be Jesus. I sure don't want to follow the SDA teachings.

 

[Benjamin]

Ah, come on Benjamin! You don't need school, the BB is much more important! :laugh:

Maybe you could offer a link to your discussion on the BB. (If you have time of course.)

Not having any luck, and am thinking I may have lost the files I'm looking for when an old computer crashed. Also, I think the old debate I was thinking about here was more over the HS being removed during trib times, rather than Michael being the restrainer. BTW, I do hold to Michael and Jesus being distinct. And... if I remember right Michael being the restrainer presents a problem for pretrib dispensationalist along the lines of the HS being removed though. Nuff said. Happy debating!
:tonofbricks:

 

[J.D.]

But many believe the nations are unbelievers.

And Satan isn't deceiving the believing church?? There is so much deception in the church today, how can that be? And I think Satan is behind much of it because I believe Satan is behind all false teachings:

Word of faith teachings
The NAR/Five-Fold movement
New Age-Christian syncretization
Some of the Emerging Church beliefs

Many believers are confused, but the elect can not be deceived into following Satan into perdition:

Matthew 24:24 (KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

John 10:4-5 (KJV) 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Not only that, but the real issue is Satanic blinding. The Gentiles dwelled in darkness for centuries, but Christ was a light for them. Satan was bound - and is still bound - from blinding the Gentiles as he had done for millinia. No, not every single Gentile individual without exception, but in general, we live in a time going on for about two thousand years now in which the Gentiles have turned to God and Satan has been powerless to prevent it.

 

[J.D.]

Thanks Marcia! I was starting to feel neglected! :laugh:

Yes, some say the Holy Spirit. I read an article last night that said the restrainer is the church.


Edit: since this thread has sorta pooped out, (everyone) feel free to talk about anything you want regarding the end times and the order of things.

This is the hardest subject I have ever encountered in the Bible.

I noticed that Gill (historical premillialist) and M. Henry (amillinial) both say that the restrainer is the Roman empire and the man of sin is the state or office of Pope. The man of sin could not be revealed until the waning of the Roman powers, which led to an eventual transfer of power to the Pope himself, who rules the world as antichrist.

Making either the Church or the Holy Spirit out to be the restrainer which is taken out of the way presents a number of theological delimmas, not the least of which is explaining how the Jews are going to be saved without the Holy Spirit (ye must be born again, born of the Spirit) and/or without the Church (the pillar and ground of the truth).

 

[Amy.G]

I noticed that Gill (historical premillialist) and M. Henry (amillinial) both say that the restrainer is the Roman empire and the man of sin is the state or office of Pope. The man of sin could not be revealed until the waning of the Roman powers, which led to an eventual transfer of power to the Pope himself, who rules the world as antichrist.

Making either the Church or the Holy Spirit out to be the restrainer which is taken out of the way presents a number of theological delimmas, not the least of which is explaining how the Jews are going to be saved without the Holy Spirit (ye must be born again, born of the Spirit) and/or without the Church (the pillar and ground of the truth).

Thanks J.D. for responding. :thumbs:

I can understand why some believe the Pope is the Antichrist because (at the least) he has put himself in the place of God, but he does not rule the world. How is that explained?

 

[Jim1999]

One thought, The Pope does not succeed at ruling the earth, but it isn't because he isn't trying.

Watch and see who shows up with grand parade anywhere in the world!

I think there is some merit in the thought.

One thing you will find in eschatology, is that viewpoints on verses such as the one under discussion will change with time.

I am fixed in my viewpoints as an amillennialist, but never totally dismiss other viewpoints.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[skypair]

I can understand why some believe the Pope is the Antichrist because (at the least) he has put himself in the place of God, but he does not rule the world. How is that explained?

As one who believes it, let me explain. Right now he is "in the place of" the Holy Spirit to or for a worldly kingdom we call Catholicism. Of course, he is trying to bring the whole world into his "faith" as witnessed by him kissing the Koran, issuing more ecumenical encyclicals, having ambassadors in every capital, etc.

At the beginning of the tribulation, he will make himself "in the place of" Christ for 3 1/2 years. There his activities will be seen as "making his enemies his footstool" to which end he will a) take the political reins of western governance and b) martyr those who do not convert to his "Christian" faith. He is the reason, IMO, for the 5th seal martyrs who appear in heaven in Rev 6:9.

So are you following? Up until midtrib he has replaced the Holy Spirit and Christ in that he dictates the ever-widening religion and controls political matters such that it appears that the king of peace has come.

At midtrib, he puts himself in the place of God when he controls the world's economies. We all believe that the "currency" of the kingdom of God is love but in AC's kingdom, it is money/materialism. We know that today -- we just have never seen Satan in charge of all the money in all the world (BTW, it will likely be through his control of oil from his capital then, Babylon.).

skypair

 

[Marcia]

Many believers are confused, but the elect can not be deceived into following Satan into perdition:

Matthew 24:24 (KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

John 10:4-5 (KJV) 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Not only that, but the real issue is Satanic blinding. The Gentiles dwelled in darkness for centuries, but Christ was a light for them. Satan was bound - and is still bound - from blinding the Gentiles as he had done for millinia. No, not every single Gentile individual without exception, but in general, we live in a time going on for about two thousand years now in which the Gentiles have turned to God and Satan has been powerless to prevent it.

I agree that true believers cannot be deceived to the point of denying Christ but there is still deception that does not affect salvation issues.

Also, while it is true the Gentiles are turning to God in a general way of speaking, the number of believers is actually small, at least in Europe and even the U.S. Using certain criteria for born-again believers, Barna states that about 8% of the US population are born again Christians. A larger number, with more general criteria, are "evangelicals." I realize these stats may not be accurate but it's also true, at least in this area, that you can work in an office with 40 people and be the only believer, as far as it is possible to tell that.

Besides, the passages about binding Satan do not indicate it is just binding him from deceiving Gentiles.

JD, What about the NT passages warning us to beware of Satan? Are we supposed to ignore those?

 

[Marcia]

I noticed that Gill (historical premillialist) and M. Henry (amillinial) both say that the restrainer is the Roman empire and the man of sin is the state or office of Pope. The man of sin could not be revealed until the waning of the Roman powers, which led to an eventual transfer of power to the Pope himself, who rules the world as antichrist.

Making either the Church or the Holy Spirit out to be the restrainer which is taken out of the way presents a number of theological delimmas, not the least of which is explaining how the Jews are going to be saved without the Holy Spirit (ye must be born again, born of the Spirit) and/or without the Church (the pillar and ground of the truth).

I am not convinced the Pope is the antichrist but that's another topic for another thread.

The Jews can still be saved even if the Holy Spirit is taken away in the sense that if the church is removed, there is no one on earth with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit can still work on people, just like before Christ came. God sends the Holy Spirit and people can be convicted.

I'm not totally convinced that the "one who restrains" is the Holy Spirit, just arguing a response to what you said.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

One thought, The Pope does not succeed at ruling the earth, but it isn't because he isn't trying.

Watch and see who shows up with grand parade anywhere in the world!

I think there is some merit in the thought.

One thing you will find in eschatology, is that viewpoints on verses such as the one under discussion will change with time.

I am fixed in my viewpoints as an amillennialist, but never totally dismiss other viewpoints.

Cheers,

Jim

Oi! Cheers!

 

[skypair]

One thought, The Pope does not succeed at ruling the earth, but it isn't because he isn't trying.

Watch and see who shows up with grand parade anywhere in the world!

In fact, he presently wears the white robes of Jesus glory and rides "in" a white horse wherever he shows up! It's only a matter of time before he claiims to be Christ.

skypair