Amillennialism

[Amy.G]

Amy, did you read the scriptures I posted on the other thread? I was saying that Satan's power is lessened for believers, but not unbelievers, but still we are warned. If Satan is bound, we'd have to disregard all those scriptures in the NT warning us against his schemes and deceptions.

I think the demons were more active when Jesus incarnated - they knew who he was and were actively trying to keep people from knowing Him. That is why I think we see a lot of demon possession in the Gospels.

Bound does not mean he's just a little less active - if that's all it means then there is not much meaning to the concept, imo.

I know you are exploring but I just want to make some points.

Amills think that the MK is now. I see no evidence for that.

Thanks Marcia. I guess I need to go to the other thread and read your posts. I appreciate your input. :thumbs:

 

[Marcia]

Thanks Marcia. I guess I need to go to the other thread and read your posts. I appreciate your input. :thumbs:

I think I put them on a couple of threads, including the Pre--Trib Rapture Affecionados.

Here is what I had:

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 1 Jn 5.19

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4.3,4


I maintain that destroying Satan is for the redeemed for now, then permanent destruction (although Satan will still be conscious - I am not an annihilationist!) when Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. 2 Thess. 3.3

so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes. 1 Cor 2.11

No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor. 11.14

For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and yet Satan hindered us. 1 Thess 2.18

for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
1 Tim 5.15


And of course, we have the Eph 6 passage about how our battle is against evil spiritual forces (demons):
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
...in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
Eph 6.11-12, 16

I think Eph 6 is for believers today - not just for believers then. There is no indication in these passages that we are not to heed these warnings or that they don't apply to us today.


Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 1 Cor 7.5

For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain. 1 Thess 3.5


Satan hinders believers, appears as an angel of light, deceives, schemes, and is in spiritual warfare against believers. Satan is always on the attack against the church, God's word, the gospel, and believers. He never lets up.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think I put them on a couple of threads, including the Pre--Trib Rapture Affecionados.

Here is what I had:

Amillenialist do not believe in an exact 1,000 year reign after the rapture. They believe that Jesus established his earthly kindgom in the Church and that the allusion to the 1,000 year reign basically means a very long time. Amillenialist don't believe in a rapture but a final judgement.

These are the questions I ask myself. Does Daniel speak of a rapture of tribulation that hasn't already occured? I believe most rapturist place a paranthetical period in Daniels week to support their views. All save one prophesy of Daniel's was fulfilled by 70 AD. That one that is still to come is the final judgment. I see Jesus setting up his church in 70 AD and the destruction of the temple was the fulfillment. So then you must consider the NT for future events. I'll get back later with this. However, I'll put together some ideas to present using Daniel and world history. What rapturist must prove is that Jesus didn't establish his earthly kingdom as yet to make their view fit.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB, are you Amil? Someone (Sky, I think) said that it is common among reformed such as yourself.

My reformed brethren say I am. :laugh: Honestly Amy I am still growing in my knowelege and understanding of eschatology.

RB

 

[Allan]

Amillenialist do not believe in an exact 1,000 year reign after the rapture. They believe that Jesus established his earthly kindgom in the Church and that the allusion to the 1,000 year reign basically means a very long time. Amillenialist don't believe in a rapture but a final judgement.

These are the questions I ask myself. Does Daniel speak of a rapture of tribulation that hasn't already occured? I believe most rapturist place a paranthetical period in Daniels week to support their views. All save one prophesy of Daniel's was fulfilled by 70 AD. That one that is still to come is the final judgment. I see Jesus setting up his church in 70 AD and the destruction of the temple was the fulfillment. So then you must consider the NT for future events. I'll get back later with this. However, I'll put together some ideas to present using Daniel and world history. What rapturist must prove is that Jesus didn't establish his earthly kingdom as yet to make their view fit.

That is very easy seeing as how none of the characteristics of His Kingdom are present today nor have they been since His departure. With Amill's lmost everything prophetically or eschatologically are seen as alagorical and instead of literal. (and if something is written in such a way that is displayed as metaphorical or alligorical, yes it is to be literally taken that way).

Christ Church was established on the day of pentacost not 70 ad. Some might say while Jesus was still here but in either case it was not established some 20+ years later after His assension. We find this most specifically addressed in Acts 2 where all that believed were added to "the church".

As for Daniel, his prophesy is dealing with Israel not the Church and thus does not speak of the rapture but the visible return of Christ where all men shall see him. It is also the reason a gap is seen in the weeks of Daniel since God is no longer dealing with Israel at this time but the Church, yet the Trib is where God will once again deal with Israel.

Pre-mill was the domonant eschatological view of the early church and Amill came about through Augustine (yeah, the same one). Not that it wasn't a view till then, it just was not the dominate theology of the early church, pre and post Nicean fathers. It was not always called pre-mill though but also known as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism".

 

[skypair]

The more appropriate title for this view of eschatology is Realized Millennialism.

Theologies often make up these new terms to explain why they see something that has not literally come to pass. It should have sufficed to say that Christ's kingdom is here "spiritually" but not yet "literally" as the Bible prophesies. But then again, they deny the literal promises of the Bible so, there you go.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

A-millennial means A = NO - millenium.

Reformers believe this. Christ comes -- judgment -- eternity.

skypair

This does not represent the amil position. There is a thousand year reign of Christ, but it isn't a literal thousand years. It's a long period of time represented by the term "a thousand years".

 

[J.D.]

Hello everyone.

Myself used be premill for many years. Now I am Amill.

I would like to explaining you why my beliefs has changed. Back in year 2000. I was studying Eschatology on rapture timing. At first, I was pretrib in my beginning Christian life back to 1989. I though pretribulational is biblical. Because I was invited to an independent fundamental baptist church by old friend. IFB people saying, "I am a Bible believer", because they use KJV, and claim, they always follow the Bible 100% with doctrines. I was learning pretribulationism, because of what Baptists teaching. I thought it is biblical and truth.

One day, I visited old deaf couple's house(they were member of that Baptist church, which I was used as member there before). They asked me, when rapture will occurs? I told them, rapture before tribulation. They told me, they believe rapture after tribulation. I was shocked of them. Because I noticed almost all Baptists believe in pretribulation. I did debate with them on rapture. They want me to read 2 Thess. 2:1-3. I said to them, ok, I am reading it and sign language same time while reading it, as I said to them, "When I read them, I MUST agree and follow what God's Word saying."

When I read 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Verse 3 that hit me so hard. I understand verse 3 very clear. I cannot argue with verse 3.

Then, they want me to read Matt. 24:29-31. Then, I told them the same thing.

When I read Matt. 24:29-31. Verse 31 that hit me hard. I told them, that verse 31 tells the same thing with 1 Thess 4:16-17 about gathering.

I told them, I have to study Bible and commentatories on rapture at home, I will be right back and tell them what I have study them.

I have been studying Bible and books on rapture spent many hours all day till 1:30 a.m. Finally, at last I determined left pretrib camp for good, and realized that Bible is clear telling us that we must face tribulation first before our gathering. I left pretrib camp in year 1992.

But, I wa still premill during in that period.

Till year 2000, I started to digging deeper on God's word on Eschatology.

While studying Bible. Matthew 25:31-46 caused me trouble the mostly whilst myself was premill. Matt 25:31-46 tells me clearly, when Christ shall come with angels, angels will separate believers aparted from unbelievers from all nations. And bring them to face before Christ sits on throne. This is very picture of Great White Throne. And there is no "a thousand years" mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46.

Also, another passage in John 6:39.40. 44, and 54; that passage bother me mostly. Christ ells us, the resurrection shall be on the LAST day.

Pretrib teaching that the resurrection shall be 7 years earlier before Second Advent. That is about 2,700 days aparted between "Rapture" and "Second Adevnt". But, that passage clearly telling us, the resurrection shall be on the LAST day. I understand, "last day" simple mean it will be on the last day of humankind era- "end of the world", that shall be follow at Second Advent.

Even, also, John 6:39,40, 44, & 54 did not say, there will be 1000 years aparted. That passage telling us, resurrection shall be on the LAST day. I notice in the four gospels, Christ never teaching them of 'a thousand years'. Clear, Christ doesn't teaching premill doctrine.

Also, in John 5:28-29 telling us very clear, WHEN the "hour" is come, both believers and unbelievers in their graves, all shall hear Christ's voice. All shall be raise out of graves, some go into everlasting life, some go into everlasting punishment. This is very clear of ONE resurrection event, and one judgment day. This passage didn't saying anything of 'a thousand years'.

I better stop this post. I better continue discuss this post into part two in another post. To be continued...

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Very similar to my own journey from pretrib to amil.

 

[J.D.]

Tonight, I will post to discuss deep on Revelation chapter 20. Premills always emphasis on Revelation chapter that, it tells us there will be a future literal a thousand years on earth because of "a thousand years" or "the thousand years" saying so. I will discuss on Revelation chapter 20, what it is talking about-tonight. Because I am off from work.

By the way, we are aware that, all 65 books in the Bible did not mentioned 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years'. Revelation chapter 20 is the only ONE chapter or six verses that mentioned of 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years'.

Suppose, if book of Revelation was not written, then, the rest of 65 books of Bible would have easily teaching amillennial.

In other words, I am sure that premills would argue toward to amills, 'Why not we tear book of Revelation out of the Bible?' Or, 'Why not tear chapter 20 out of Revelation from Bible?'

This is a poor arguement.

Later, I will discuss on Revelation chapter 20 with deep meanings and understanding of spiritual meanings.


Right now, I am working on next post on Revelation chapter 20. Please be patience with me.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Brother, Please forgive me for correcting you, but there are three other places in the Bible where "a thousand years" is used - Psalm 90:4, Ecc 6:6, and II Peter 3:8. But notice how in each case the term is used metaphorically for long periods of time. So we have an a-priori basis for a non-literal interpretation of "a thousand years". Pretribs and premils have to at least agree that a literal interpretation of Rev 20 is not necessary based on this. True?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That is very easy seeing as how none of the characteristics of His Kingdom are present today nor have they been since His departure. With Amill's lmost everything prophetically or eschatologically are seen as alagorical and instead of literal. (and if something is written in such a way that is displayed as metaphorical or alligorical, yes it is to be literally taken that way).

Christ Church was established on the day of pentacost not 70 ad. Some might say while Jesus was still here but in either case it was not established some 20+ years later after His assension. We find this most specifically addressed in Acts 2 where all that believed were added to "the church".

As for Daniel, his prophesy is dealing with Israel not the Church and thus does not speak of the rapture but the visible return of Christ where all men shall see him. It is also the reason a gap is seen in the weeks of Daniel since God is no longer dealing with Israel at this time but the Church, yet the Trib is where God will once again deal with Israel.

Pre-mill was the domonant eschatological view of the early church and Amill came about through Augustine (yeah, the same one). Not that it wasn't a view till then, it just was not the dominate theology of the early church, pre and post Nicean fathers. It was not always called pre-mill though but also known as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism".

What do you think this means?

Rev 1:6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

or

nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Rom 14:17
The kingdom starts with Jesus establishment of his church and flows into eternity because

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lots of people misunderstand the eschatology of others.

Here is how I see a-mill. I do NOT ascribe to the view point, I am pre-mill. The x-mill belief relates the Second Coming of Christ (SCC) to the Millennial Messianic Reign of Jesus (MMRJ).

(In the following some people use 'literal' and/or 'figurative' in place of 'physical' and 'spiritual' as I have used. I think I use the best terms for 'spiritual' can be 'literal' (but doesn't have to be).

The Pre-millinnial viewpoints have a physical SCC before (the 'pre') the physical MMRJ.

The Post-millinnial viewpoints have a physical MMRJ before the physical SCC (things are going to get better and better and then the Lord will return).

The a-millinnial have two different groups:

1. A physical MMRJ will happen before the spiritual SCC
2. A spiritual MMRJ has happened before a spiritual SCC

(There are other posibilities, but these two are the two I've seen repeatedly here on BB = Baptist Board.)

Those who ascribe to #2 generally consider themselves 'preterists' . But those who take lots of things with figurative/spiritual meanings may call themselves 'mystics'.

Brother DeafPosttrib whom I've visited with from about AD 2000 has the position #1. There are others around who hold position #2.

Here is a writing I wrote eariler. It is a work in process so slap me with some constructive (preferred) criticism (better criticism than 'no comment').

----------------------------
x-mill = x-millennial: the relationship of the Millennial (1,000 year)
Messianic Reign of Christ, and His Second Coming
('pre-' means the Second coming is before the Millenniuml)

x-trib = x-tribulation: the relationship of the tribulation
and the rapture/resurrection ('pre-' means the
rapture/resurrection comes before the Tribulation period)

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward: [this is correct ]

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual/literal MK=millennial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here

 

[Amy.G]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward: [this is correct ]

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

I'll skip this one because it's the one I've heard for years and quite frankly didn't know there were other beliefs. Although I've never been able to make it work completely.

[

b]Post-trib pre-mill outline[/b] of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Quite similar to pre-trib except for time of rapture

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual/literal MK=millennial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

This is different from the Amill views I've read about

Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here

This is also not the Amill view that I've seen so far. Most Amills do not believe the rapture has taken place, or that the MK has already happened, but is happening now. Only a minority believe that Jesus has already returned to judge. I think this view is more in line with full Preterism, which in a word is.....wrong.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I can't talk to a Pharisee of the time of Jesus.
But there are Pharisees around today --
New York City is full of them

Over here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City

it says:

While three-quarters of New York Jews do not consider themselves religiously observant, the Orthodox community is rapidly growing thanks to the Hasidic sects, while the numbers of Conservative and Reform Jews are declining.

I know they consider me a lowly goy (or goylim -
i.e. a gentile) but thanks to the safety of the
internet - a Hasidic Jew (i.e. used to be Pharasees)
can talk to a goy Messianic Jesus Phreaque.

In the early 1990s probably I spake with
a rabbinical student on bulletin boards (bbs)
or chat lines. I asked him: how will you know
Messiah when He comes?

When Messiah comes He will:
1. bring peace to Yisrael & Hierusalem
2. restore the dailly sacrifice
3. have the Temple in Hierusalem (on Temple
Mount) rebuilt

The Daily Sacrifice can be made on the
altar while the Holy Place & Holy of Holies
building is being built (Ezekiel latter chapters
tell how to build and use a Temple - a
temple like has yet to be built).

If someone comes and claims to be the
Messiah (Greek: Christ) and can do these things,
then he will be accepted as Messiah.
But what happens if he is the anti-messiah
(Antichrist)? He will still be followed.

IMHO the Antichrist will renew the Peace
Treaty that Clinton had Arafat and some
Jewish leader sign - a seven year treaty
for the safety of Jerusalem. That
was signed in 1993 (Oct) and expired
in early November 2000 (many though the
world would end then, but it didn't).
God is going to do things on His schedule
but He has shared it with us, once events
start:

IMHO: Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

So when the Antichrist gets the Temple built
some 3½-years later [probably at the dedication
of the Temple (where the daily sin sacrifice
has gone on for the 3½-years = 1260 days
(see details in the first part of Revelaltion
chapter 11) ] he goes into the Temple and
declares himself as god.

Millions of Jews who watch this on live T.V.
will see that the stone that the builder rejected
is indeed the real Messiah: Messiah Jesus
Ben Yosheph, Ben David, Ben Yudah,
Ben Abraham, etc.; carpenter of Nazereth.
(these are the ones who will protected by
the very Hand of God during the second half
of the Tribulation Period). When they
declare Him Messiah (and Lord) then
He shall become their Savior as well - just
like us gentiles.

 

[Amy.G]

One problem I have with the literal 1000 year rule is that based on some readings I've done, most believe this will be a time of peace and love because Satan is bound and is unable to deceive. What happens to the "sin nature" during this time? Even with the devil locked up, there will still be sinful, selfish people on the earth, which means that there will be murderers, liars, ect.....

 

[TCGreek]

I use to be Amil but now I'm thinking with the historic and dispensational premil positions.

 

[Amy.G]

I use to be Amil but now I'm thinking with the historic and dispensational premil positions.

What made you change your mind TC?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy.G,

You say, most Amills do not believe rapture taken place. Not true. Almost every amills believe there will be rapture. I believe there will be literal rapture at Second Advent.

We have to be careful for being labeling amills' beliefs. For example, people think amills are partial or full preterism. But many amills are not either full or preterists. I am not either full or partial preterists.

Let me say something on Matthew 24.

Full/partial preterists saying that Matthew 24 already fulfilled in 70 A.D.

As basic thing, so far I am aware that, all futurists, full, partial prerists agree that Matt. 24:2 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. that the building of Temple was destroyed by Roman Army.

When we come to Matthew 24:15-21. There is split between futurists and full preterists. Full preterists saying Matt. 24:15-21 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. Whilst, futurists saying this is not yet happen, it will be happen in the future seven year of Tribulaiton period.

Partial preterists do agree that Matt. 24:15-21 already fulfilled in 70 A.D.

But, all partial preterists understand Matt. 24:29-31 is not yet occur, it is future event - Second Advent.

Full preterists believe Matt. 24:29-31 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. as spiritualizing Coming of Christ. That why I strong disagree with them. That is false beliefs.

I believe MANY of full preterists are postmills.

I have no idea what position of mill, Grasshopper believes. I am aware that Grasshopper believes ALL prophecies were already fulfilled in 70 A.D. That why he is full preterist.

Later I still promise, I will make post to discuss on Revelation chapter 20.

J.D.,

Yes you are right. I will discuss on verses of O.T. on the examples of 'a thousand' verses.

So, they should be able to understand what 'a thousand' or 'the thousand' years of Revelation 20, is talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Amy.G]

Amy.G,

You say, most Amills do not believe rapture taken place. Not true. Almost every amills believe there will be rapture. I believe there will be literal rapture at Second Advent.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Sorry DeafPosttrib, I didn't mean to imply that Amillls do not believe in the rapture. What I meant was that according to what I've read, some believe it has already taken place. Or maybe I'm thinking of Preterists. I think I may have confused myself. :laugh:

I agree that we should be careful not to label one another. I just want to get an understanding of the various end time beliefs. Thanks for helping me out. :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

What made you change your mind TC?

Scripture and How to interpret the fulfillment of biblical prophecies.

 

[Amy.G]

Scripture and How to interpret the fulfillment of biblical prophecies.

Could you be a little more specific? :laugh: