Amillennialism

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


3. 2 Thess 2:1

//Does the word " gather together" (episunago)
in 2 Thess 2:1 mean the Rapture?//

IMHO - yes, the rapture2, in fact

IMHO the (episunago) in Matthew 24:31
means "gather together", the rapture2, also.

IMHO the following examples of the Coming of Jesus
in power; (resurrection 2) terminology is bolded, the
gathering of God's Church Age saints (rapture2)
is underlined.
The seperating AND (Greek 'Kai') is writ red
and large.

Mat 24:30-31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man
in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of
the earth mourne, and they shall see
the Sonne of man comingin the clouds of heauen,
with power and great glory.
31 AND hee shall send his Angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect
from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, AND by our gathering together
vnto him,

In both cases, the resurrection2 and the rapture2
(with variant descriptions) are described and joined
by an AND meaning two seperate sets of events.
The two events are mentioned in other scirptures.

The a-mill error has the AND connecting two set descriptions of the same set. But that has the largely Gentile Church go through the Tribulation period - a period God has set aside to save all National Jews and zap Gentiles that mistreated the Jews lo these past 2k-years.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


4. Titus 2:13

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

A-mill - AND connects two different names for the same set
pre-trib, pre-mill - AND connects two different sets of events

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period
----------------------------------------------------
By contrast, a-mills must say that these two groups of people are the same group, with different names.

 

[IFB Mole]

This is for Pilgrimer and DPT,

I'm NOT wanting an argument, but answers how these fit into your Echatology -I want to lean some things

1. Revelation 9:15-16 prophesies of a war that will kill one thord of mankind this has happened in all of history. How is it explained
2. Revelation 11:1-2 says that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles for 42 months prior to the Second Coming…This didn’t happen in 70 AD. The Romans simply destroyed Jerusalem. Or does the 42 mnthe refer to the fall in 70AD until Masada in 73 AD?
3. Revelation 11:3-12 describes the ministry of two witnesses that will prophesy during the 1,260 days of the great tribulation. They will then be killed and three and one-half days later rise from the dead…Nothing like this happened in 70 AD. I know that these 2 witnesses could be the LAW (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) and they "died" in Christ and rose again 3 days later when Christ rose
4. Revelation 13 describes a time when every person on earth will be required to have a number in order to buy or sell…This has never happened in all of history, what does this mean?
5. Revelation 13 prophesies the coming of the False Prophet who will pull down fire from heaven in the sight of men. He will deceive the world into following the Antichrist by means of those miracles that he has the power to do…Where is the account of this in history?
6. Revelation 16:12 states that the Euphrates River will be dried up to make way for the kings of the east to invade Israel at the Battle of Armageddon…The Euphrates did not dry up in 70 AD.
7. Revelation 20:1-6 teaches that Satan will be bound for 1,000 years at the time of the first resurrection…

How do these fit into your viewpoints?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Thank you Pilgrimer. Who is the man of sin? This verse implies that a singular person will appear and show himself to be as God.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This letter to the Thessalonians was written 50 A.D. Paul is writing to reassure the Thessalonians that the trials and persecutions they were suffering was not the great tribulation foretold by Jesus and the Day of Christ was not yet at hand. He said the revolt would have to come first, and then the man of sin would rise up. Sixteen years later, in 66 A.D., the Jews revolted.

One of the men who rose up to a prominent position of leadership during the revolt was the Zealot, Simon bar Gioras. After Vespasian subdued Galilee, the remnants of the army of Josephus, still several thousand strong, fled to the fortress-city of Jerusalem under the leadership of Simon. John of Gischala, the leader of another Zealot faction, also sought refuge in Jerusalem where there was already a third faction under a man named Eleazar. This third party was made up of the more moderate men and leaders of the nation, mostly the religious and civil authorities who had ruled before the rebellion, including the majority of the Sanhedrin. Thus, as the Scripture said, before its fall “the great city was divided into three parts.” (Revelation 16:19)

The eventual fighting between these three factions for control of the city during the siege caused more death and destruction than the Romans did, but in the weeks before the siege it was Simon who gained official recognition as the new ruler of the Jewish nation. He donned the royal robes that were brought from the treasury and made a ceremonial procession which wound its way through the streets of Jerusalem and up to the Temple Mount. There his army took control of the Temple Courts and committed the ultimate blasphemy of anointing Simon with the Messianic title “King of Israel" and setting up an armed camp in the very courts of the Holy House itself. Coins were struck to commemorate the realization of the messianic dreams of the Zealots and they bore this inscription: “Year Four of the Redemption of Zion.” The coins were also stamped with the name “Simon” and a three-stringed harp on one side, and on the reverse the coin read, “Deliverance of Jerusalem,” and was decorated with a palm branch surrounded by an olive wreath, the standard victor’s emblem.

However, this messianic dream-come-true turned out to be a delusion, a false vision of a messianic kingdom of their own imagination. Because they refused the truth of the Gospel and rejected the Messiah of God, Jesus the Christ, God gave them over to their vain imagination so that they believed a lie, and plunged the nation of Israel and the Jewish people into a war the bitter fruit of which was untold bloody death and suffering, the firey destruction of the land and of the Jewish commonwealth, and the violent and permanent end of Old Covenant worship . . .

“. . . because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but took pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10:b-12)

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

I'm skipping the other statements because this is the crux of the matter, imo. The fact that the majority rejected Jesus is the same as saying that Israel as a nation/people rejected Jesus. No one has disputed that some Jews believed Jesus - this is obvious.

That wasn't exactly the point. The crux of all this is not whether or not any Jews have been saved. It is about what the salvation of these Jews means in terms of the salvation of Israel. The premil view, put rather baldly, is that it doesn’t mean anything. The Jews who have been saved do not count. Why? Because there aren’t enough of them?

Although the Old and New Testaments both teach that only a remnant of Jews will ever be saved . . .

Although multitudes of Jews have been saved . . .

Although every promise made to the Jews has been fulfilled in Christ . . .

Although the very foundation stones of the New Covenant Church we are members of today are all Jews . . .

Even though the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven were given to a Jew . . .

Even so, in the premil view, that has nothing to do with the salvation of Israel or the inclusion of the Jewish people in the New Covenant.

And what Scripture is this view primarily based on? . . .

If this were not so, we would not have the contrast with Paul's statement that "all

Israel" will be saved. Does this mean every Jew? No. It means the majority . . .

Now there is the heart of the problem. No, “all Israel” does not mean “the majority” of the Jewish people. Go back to the beginning of this discourse Paul is giving the Romans on the salvation of Israel and look at it a little more closely. It covers three whole chapters which begins with a very simple and clear definition of who counts in God’s eyes as “Israel.”

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.”

This is a rather simple concept really. Paul is just saying that not every physical descendant of Abraham (those which are “of Israel”) is counted by God as Israel, neither is every physical descendant of Abraham counted by God as the seed and heir. Let me repeat that, not every physical descendant of Abraham is counted as Abraham’s seed. Only “some” Jews count in the eyes of God as “Israel.”

To support that premise, Paul draws from the Old Testament example of the election of Isaac and Jacob. He points out that Ishmael was the physical descendant of Abraham. In fact, Ishmael was the firstborn son and was therefore the legal heir of Abraham. And yet, Ishmael, Abraham’s firstborn son, his own flesh and blood, was disinherited and cast out and the younger son inherited the promise. Lesson? Being a physical descendant of Abraham, even being the firstborn son of Abraham, does not automatically make one his heir. There is a little something more at work here.

And then to further strengthen that not all Jews are counted as “Israel,” Paul goes on to remind us of the history of Esau and Jacob. Remember Esau too was a physical descendant of Abraham, and of Isaac, and again, being the eldest or firstborn son he was the legal heir of the promise. But what happened? Esau sold his birthright to Jacob and Jacob inherited the promise. Lesson? Even if one is a physical descendant of Abraham and is by the law the heir, one can sell his birthright for a mess of pottage. Think of that . . . A man can sell his birthright to heaven for a kingdom of dust. Ouch!

“My kingdom is not of this world” said Jesus.

So why is Paul reminding us of this history? Because God did these things in order to teach us that simply being a physical descendant of Abraham does not mean one is counted as the seed and the heir of the promise. After all, how could Caiaphas be heir to all the promises of God? So who does count as “Israel,” the seed and heir of Abraham?

What does the Scripture say? It is that physical seed of Abraham who is born “according to the promise” who is counted as “Israel” (Romans 9:8), those physical descendants of Abraham whom God has chosen, those Jews who are the “elect” (Romans 9:11), those Jews who are the sons whom God “loves” (Romans 9:13), those Jews who have “obtained mercy” (Romans 9:18), who are “vessels of honor” (Romans 9:23), those Jews who are the “remnant” of the Jewish people that God swore he would save (Romans 9:27), those Jews who sought righteousness by faith (Romans 9:33-10:11) those Jews who are the “elect remnant” (Romans 10:5), those Jews who are the “firstfruits” of the harvest of the Gospel (Romans 10:16), those Jews who were the natural branches who were not broken off (Romans 10:17), those Jews who were not “blinded” (Romans 11:25). It is those Jews, the Christian or Messianic Jews, the New Covenant Jews, the Gospel-believing, born-again, Jesus following Jews who count as “Israel” in God’s eyes, and they alone are the seed and heir of Abraham. The rest are as Ishmael and Esau, physical descendants of Abraham, the firstborn or older sons of Abraham as far as covenants go, but sons of Abraham who were disinherited and cast out, who have sold their birthright in God's heavenly kingdom for a mess of pottage.

It is in that context that Paul concludes this teaching about the salvation of the Jews that he says, “And so all Israel shall be saved,” the context being that “Israel” is not simply every physical descendant of Abraham, the majority of whom the Scriptures teach will never be saved, but those descendants of Abraham who are in Christ, they are the ones God counts as Israel, the seed and heir of Abraham.

So you can’t simply take the tail end of Paul’s teaching, ignore two and a half chapters about who is and who is not counted as “Israel,” and simply assume that the all Israelwho will be saved means the majority of the Jewish people. Not after Paul has gone to such lengths to explain that “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”
Continued

 

[Pilgrimer]

Continued


But let’s also look a little more closely at this verse itself: “And so all Israel shall be saved: according to what is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”

Paul didn’t simply say “and so all Israel shall be saved,” period. He said, “and so all Israel shall be saved: according to what is written” and then he goes on to quote a Messianic passage from Isaiah that is quite enlightening if you go back and see what Paul had in mind when he said all Israel will be saved according to this prophecy . . .

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, or out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the land, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and the kings to the brightness of thy rising.” Isaiah 59:20-60:3

Notice that Paul said “all Israel shall be saved: as it is written . . . the Redeemer shall come unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob.” Clearly Paul is not insinuating that Christ would come to “all Israel” in the sense of every Jew, or even the majority of Jews, but that Christ would come to those in Jacob who turn from their transgression. They are the Jews God counts as the seed and heir, they are Israel and they all will be saved, not the majority, but every single one of those in Jacob who turn from their transgression, they all will be saved, and they alone are counted by God as the seed and heirs of Abraham.

But please, keep reading the next couple of chapers here of Isaiah. It is a particularly beautiful messianic vision he was given of the blessings of those Jews upon whom these wonderful promises were fulfilled. Keep on reading, about the New Jerusalem, the New Covenant city, and the blessedness of those who dwell even now within its gates. And keep right on reading and see where Jesus says this messianic prophpecy was being fulfilled in the ears of those who heard him that first Sabbath morning so long ago, when he stood up in the synagogue to read and opened the scroll just in the midst of this Messianic vision you are reading and he read these words . . .

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach the good tidings unto the meek . . .” (Isaiah 61; cf Luke 4:18 . . .)

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pilgrimer,

I want to tell you. I do not agree with your comment on 2 Thess.2:3-4.

"Falling away" have been happened throughout centuries within Christians' spiritual conditions, as it getting worst toward peak. As it make God become fed up with Christioans for sins and backslidding away from God. Then, God know when the time to come, God will allow the man of sin to be revealed to take over Christians by persecute against them("sitteth in the temple"). This is not relate with 66 A.D. revolt of Jews in Jerusalem. There were many apostasies in past. Although I believe the signs of apostasy within Church's spiritual conditions are getting worsen toward peak. These will make God become fed up or angry, to allow Satan to be loose out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:6-8) to persecute against Christians for a little season(Rev. 13:7 and Rev. 20:3,9).

Apostle Paul tells us, Day of Christ will not come till we must see the signs of apostasy become worsen and the revealed of man of sin, then to persecute against Christians first.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[skypair]

Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 saying nothing of 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years'. No way that you can prove Ezekiel 40-48 is speaking of millennial.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no way to prove anything to you or those who will not see. But how about just the fact that we have not seen this yet?

skypair

 

[skypair]

The premil view, put rather baldly, is that it doesn’t mean anything. The Jews who have been saved do not count. Why? Because there aren’t enough of them?

You're right. Not enough of them were "saved." Rom 11:26 says "then shall ALL Israel [OT & trib] be saved." Saved how? When "the Deliverer" SHALL come. Did they see Christ, the Deliverer, in 70 AD?? No. Was "ungodliness turned from Jacob" even though He didn't come?? No. In fact, concerning the gospel, however many you say were converted were only a small portion of those who were still "enemies of the gospel for your sakes!" (11:28)

"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the land, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and the kings to the brightness of thy rising.” Isaiah 59:20-60:3

CRYSTAL CLEAR description of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurrection of the OT saints!! 70 AD? Who was resurrected then?? Even Isaiah is yet to come, Mal 4:5, prior to the great tribulation!!

I was listening to John Hagee today and he may have it wrong BUT Heb 9:28 says, "...and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." That is, "those who aren't looking for the rapture," he said, "won't be in the rapture." That, to me, is pretty strong but it does echo what I said earlier to Amy -- there are some in the various churches who are not "watching and praying" for Christ to appear in the air, Rev 22:17. The spirit of the bride DOESN'T say "He's not coming for me." It doesn't say, "He can't come until..." The Spirit of the bride says He could come at any moment -- BE READY! That one would say otherwise might just demonstrate that they are not the bride. Look at Rev 2:16 and 3:3 if you think I'm kidding!

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm the pre-mill posting here. Argue with what I said. I sure didn't say this:

Pilgrimer: // The crux of all this is not whether or not any Jews have been saved. It is about what the salvation of these Jews means in terms of the salvation of Israel. The premil view, put rather baldly, is that it doesn’t mean anything. The Jews who have been saved do not count. Why? Because there aren’t enough of them? //

Here is the three things that the non-Messanic Jews are looking for in their Messiah:

1. restore the Daily Sacrifice
2. bring peace to Yisrael
3. rebuild the Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem

Right now it looks to me like a Messiah would have to do #2 to do #1 (all that is needed is a simple alter on a simple empty place on). So the events could come down in this order:

2. bring peace to Yisrael
1. restore the Daily Sacrifice
3. rebuild the Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem

Once #2 and #1 are done, the person that did it would be counted as the Messiah.

According to my Eschatology from the Bible (the above is NOT from the Bible though it explains what is in the Bible, it just shows that even the Atheistic Jews, and Pagan Jews, and even the Religious Jews are are looking for the above Messiah) that may not be what they get:

2 Thess 2:1-11 (Geneva Bible, 1599 edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
4 Which is an aduersarie, and exalteth him selfe against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing him selfe that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I tolde you these things?
2Th 2:6 And nowe ye knowe what withholdeth that he might be reueiled in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that wicked man be reueiled, whome the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightnes of his comming,
9 Euen him whose comming is by the effectuall working of Satan, with all power, and signes, and lying wonders,
10 And in al deceiuablenes of vnrighteousnes, among them that perish, because they receiued not the loue of the trueth, that they might be saued.
11 And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleeue lies,

Here is the order of events:
1. a departing first (the pre-tribulation rapture2) - the gentile church & messanic Jews GONE
2. v.3, v.8 the disclosure (revelation) of the Antichrist (Son of Perdition) - Beginning of the tribulation period
3. (v8) the exaltation of Antichrist - mid trib
4. the consumption of Antichrist by the real Messiah -end trib
----- i.e. the Day of Christ or Day of the Lord

This is the great delusion following the disclosure of of the Antichrist;
I got rid of all those fuddy-duddy 'Christ' folks (and their Messanic Jewish lackys) They were always preaching 'sin' instead of 'love' like us regular folk do.

Then when the temple is built (3.5 years or 1260 days or 42 months) and ready to dedicate - that Antichrist will enter the Temple of the Lord and declare himself as THE LORD and dedicate the temple to himself. The real Jews will see Antichrist for what he is (then one by one: accept Jesus as Messiah /declare Jesus as Lord/ and be saved). Thus all Israel at that time will be saved - just as prophets of Old said (Romans 11 - prophet Paul)

All one really has to do is take the 'and's and figure out which and each is (don't forget 'then' (and after that) and other sequence clues. Don't forget some 'and's denote the outline itself. Don't forget the inerrant commas can be used instead of 'and' in lists of things. Don't forget 'nor' the 'negative and'.

 

[Marcia]

Pilgrimmer, I was in the middle of posting a reply to you but my connection is off or something. Somehow I lost it.

The basic problem is that you see the church as Israel and I don't. I realize that not all who are Israel are Jews, but it is also clear that Israel is still referred to and seen as a nation by God in the NT.

For example, Paul is clearly talking about Jews here in Rom. 10.1-3, calling them "Israelites."
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.


Here is Israel again (not the church)
Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Rom. 11.11b

And when Paul says in v. 26 that "all Israel will be saved," he is clearly talking about the nation/peoples of Israel. I totally disagree with your take on this.

 

[Pilgrimer]

DPT, pilgrimer,

How they went about to accomplish their task was the allegorize whole sections of scripture taking away any literal meaning and centering the allegory around Christ. But Christ didn't give Abraham or his seed "all the land which you see."

My apologies Skypair, I somehow missed this post and your comments. The man who allegorized the promised land and interpreted the promise to be referring to a heavenly country was the Apostle Paul, so I guess I'm in good company.

Christ didn't build a literal temple

The "literal" Temple was the Old Covenant Temple in Jerusalem. But that temple was only symbolic and what it symbolized is the Temple that God has built, with Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone, the Apostles as the foundation stones, and each of us Christians as the living stones which Peter says are "built up an spiritual house," the dwelling place of God in this earth. What? Know ye not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost? Jesus didn't come to earth to build another Temple like that of Solomon and Herod. He came to build a spiritual temple to dwell in that the Old Covenant tabernacle/temple was but a dim shadow of, even in all their glory.

with His literal throne in it

The throne from which Christ reigns is no earthly throne, it is the throne of God in Heaven, in the New Jerusalem, not in the old sinful city that shed the blood of the righteous, but in that city "which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

on that literal land

I'll go with Paul's doctrine that the land Abraham looked for was a heavenly one, not the earthly one. Which is why Abraham was a stranger and pilgrim in the earth, just as we are . . . for here we have no continuing city, but we look for one that is to come. (Hebrews 13:14)

divided among the literal TRIBES of Israel

When James, the Lord's own brother, wrote his letter to the Jewish Christians which had been scattered abroad because of the persection from the religious authorites, he addressed it: "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." Seems to me that James considered the Christian Jews to actually be the literal TRIBES of Israel.

as seen in Ezek 40-48.

Skypair, if you do not understand that the Temple of the Old Covenant was symbolic of the Temple of the New Covenant, and that the sacrifices and offerings of the Old Covenant were symbolic of Christ, then I'm not sure where to begin to explain it.

And the cursings AND blessings were for them -- not for us.

Well, the way I understand it is that God has graciously included Gentiles in the blessings by the process called "adoption," so I would have to disagree that the blessings of redemption and restoration are only for the Jewish people and not for Gentiles.

But I do agree that the curses of the Law only applied to those who were under the Law, and they were fulfilled in the generation of Jesus' 1st Advent, in the 7 year war in which every jot and tittle of the curse was fulfilled, which is what the great tribulation and Armageddon was all about.

And then it is also true that Abraham looked for a country come down from heaven. This is the land and temple that FOLLOW the MK. We know them as the New Earth and New Jerusalem of God's Kingdom, Rev 21.

Agreed. But think about what you just said Skypair. Abraham was not looking for an earthly kingdom to be set up, he was looking for the coming of the heavenly kingdom, which will happen not during the millennium, but after it, in the new heavens and earth.

Jesus will come again, physically, there will be a resurrection and judgment of all men, the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire, this present heavens and earth will be burned up, there will be a new heavens and new earth, and then the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven to the new earth and then Jesus will dwell with us face to face. Not in the millennium in this world, but after the millennium, in that world which is yet to come.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

The basic problem is that you see the church as Israel and I don't.

No Marcia, I don't see it that way at all, and I tried very hard to make that very clear by putting the word "Jews" in bold italic letters, over and over. Allow me to try again, this time without all my rambling commentary:

When Paul said "and so all Israel shall be saved" I believe he was speaking of all the faithful Jews being saved, not all the Jewish people being saved.

Not all of the Jews of the Old Testament will be saved, probably most won't be based on the history of the Old Testament. But some certainly will be: Abraham, Moses, David . . .

And not all the Jews of the New Testament will be saved either. Men like Caiaphas will not fare well when they stand before Christ in the judgment. But certainly some of the Jews of the New Testament will be saved: Paul, Peter, Nicodemus . . .

And what about today? Do you think anything has changed? How many out of the millions of Jews today know God?

When Jesus said straight is the way and narrow the gate that leads to life and few there be that find it, he wasn't just speaking of Gentiles.

And when Paul says in v. 26 that "all Israel will be saved," he is clearly talking about the nation/peoples of Israel. I totally disagree with your take on this.

Okay, but based on what you are saying, I don't think you understand my take on it.

I never said that Gentiles are Israel. You said that and I don't agree with it.

Nor did I say the church is Israel. You said that too and I don't agree with that either.

What I said was that the faithful Jews are "all" of Israel that God is ever going to save.

The faithful Jews of the Old Testament and the faithful Jews of the New Testament, they are the only Jews who count, no matter their number (which by the by is 144,000, which for obvious reasons I sincerely hope is not a literal number).

So let me repeat once more, when Paul said "and so all Israel shall be saved," I believe he was speaking of all the faithful Jews being saved, not all the Jewish people being saved.

The unfaithful Jews, the majority of the Jewish people, are disinherited and cast out. However, they can be grafted back in again if they turn to Christ, but ultimately, we know that only a remnant of the millions of souls will do so. Nevertheless, of the 144,000, not one single soul will be lost.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14:4

Remember Jesus telling his disciples to look out upon the fields, they were ready to be harvested? The fields he spoke of were the hearts of the Jewish people. And there was a great soul harvest of Jewish souls, read about it in the Acts. Multitudes of "sheaves" of the "firstfruits of the harvest" of the Gospel were brought into God's Holy House. The "wheat" was safely stored before the "chaff" was gathered up and burned.

Does this help clarify my meaning?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

This is for Pilgrimer and DPT,

I'm NOT wanting an argument, but answers how these fit into your Echatology -I want to lean some things

Fair enough. But I can’t answer so many questions at once, so allow me to take them one or two at a time? Otherwise I would just run on forever.

1. Revelation 9:15-16 prophesies of a war that will kill one third of mankind this has happened in all of history. How is it explained

I don’t agree that this verse is talking about one third of all mankind being killed.

The Revelation is about the Law and the Prophets being fulfilled. Please refer to Ezekiel 4 – 7 (it’s too lengthy for me to quote here) and note that this prophecy about the war against the Jewish state that covers several chapters foretold a war in Israel in which one third of men would be killed by famine, one third by the sword, and another third would be scattered to the winds: “Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege come to pass: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them . . . A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee: and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them . . . So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee, I the Lord have spoken it.”


Both Ezekiel and the Revelation prophesied of a war in which one third of the men in the land of Israel would die by the sword. And Zechariah, in the classic Messianic passage about the Shepherd being struck and the sheep being scattered, it also speaks of the two thirds of all those in the land being slain, and we know from Ezekiel that one third will be by the sword and one third by famine (Zechariah 13:7-9).

Please read chapters 4 – 7 and also make note of chapter 9 where the Old Testament speaks of those men of Israel who receive a mark in their foreheads and are spared this destruction. These are the 144,000 Jews who were to receive the stamp of God in their foreheads mentioned in Revelation 7. Clearly, based on the Old Testament prophecies that speak of the same things, this is about the war and destruction of Israel, not of the whole world.

The “time of Jacob’s trouble” was not to be a world-wide event, but a time of great tribulation in the land of Israel, which is why Jesus said: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . . Then let them which be in Judaea flee . . .” (Matthew 24:15-16) If the time of great tribulation was to be world-wide, then there would be little point in fleeing Judaea.

1. Revelation 11:1-2 says that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles for 42 months prior to the Second Coming…This didn’t happen in 70 AD. The Romans simply destroyed Jerusalem. Or does the 42 mnthe refer to the fall in 70AD until Masada in 73 AD?

This expression, “trample underfoot,” is used elsewhere in Scripture of stamping something to pieces, not simply walking around on something. And yes, I believe this refers to the 3 ½ years after Jerusalem fell to the Romans during which they systematically demolished every building in the city except for three towers they reserved for use as Roman garrisons. Even the Temple and all it’s beautiful buildings were taken apart, down to the paving stones of the courts themselves being pried up, and this mountain of stones and debris was simply pushed off the temple mount into the city streets below. Because of that the old city street level is buried 30 feet beneath the present day street level.

Luke also spoke of the city of Jerusalem being trodden underfoot and he states that this would be done “that all things which are written may be fulfilled,” referring to the writings of the Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets. The Revelation is about the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, not only in terms of the triumph of Christ over the dragon and the coming of Salvation, but also in terms of the curse of the Law and the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state and the end of the Old Covenant. All the Law and the Prophets had to be fulfilled before even one jot or tittle could pass away. The fulfillment began in 7 B.C. with the star the magi saw which predicted Jesus' birth, and it ended with the war and the fall of Masada in 73 A.D. During those years every jot and tittle of the Law and the Prophets were fulfilled, and then it all passed away.

However, I don’t agree that this was to happen before the 2nd Advent, but rather this war and destruction of Israel, the fulfillment of the curse of the Law, accompanied Jesus’ 1st Advent, and was in fact the proof that Jesus is the Messiah. There is a long period, 1000 years figuratively, that elapses between the 1st and the 2nd Advents of Christ, and all these events occur on the beginning side of the 1000 years, in the generation of Jesus’ 1st Advent. The changes that the 1st Advent of Christ wrought were not completed until all the Old Testament was fulfilled and passed away. That included the curse that was decreed in the Law which was fulfilled during the final 7 years. Then everything that pertained to the Old Covenant passed away.

Continued

 

[Pilgrimer]

Continued

1. Revelation 11:3-12 describes the ministry of two witnesses that will prophesy during the 1,260 days of the great tribulation. They will then be killed and three and one-half days later rise from the dead…Nothing like this happened in 70 AD. I know that these 2 witnesses could be the LAW (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) and they "died" in Christ and rose again 3 days later when Christ rose

I agree that these two witnesses are the Law and the Prophets, but I think what it means that their dead bodies would lie in the streets unburied for 3 ½ days refers to the siege of Jerusalem in which over 600,000 bodies of the Jewish people were thrown over the city walls or carried out the Dung Gate and were simply cast into the Hinnom Valley which served as a mass grave. And that was only the official number, no one really knew exactly how many had perished, whole buildings had been used as morgues and finally, when the dead outnumbered the living, they were simply left lying in the streets, no one was in any condition to even lift them and pile them with the rest of the dead. Instead, their bodies were simply left to become food for the beasts of the earth and the fowls of the air, a gruesome Old Testament prophecy about the “supper of the great God” that is also spoken of in Revelation 19:17-21 and in the curse of the Law in Deuteronomy 28:26. Jeremiah foresaw the fulfillment of this decree (7:32-34, 16:4, 19:7) as well as a number of other prophets who spoke of it.

It would seem to the natural eye that with the destruction and end of everything that had to do with the Old Testament, these two witnesses of God, the Law and the Prophets, were dead. But in truth, the Law and the Prophets were fulfilled by the coming and work of Jesus and the spirit of the Lord breathed into the old outward forms and rituals new life and raised up these two witnesses of God so that they now speak of heavenly, spiritual things of which the former earthly forms were but a dim shadow.

Allow me a little time to go over the rest of your questions and I will respond as best I can. I trust this might give you a little food for thought, but I would be happy to talk with you further about any of the things I have said. But I am no expert and do not understand everything in the Revelation. I don't think anyone does, but it is fun to hear what others think and compare notes.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[skypair]

The man who allegorized the promised land and interpreted the promise to be referring to a heavenly country was the Apostle Paul, so I guess I'm in good company.

As Homer Simpson would say, "Dhaaww!!"

Paul wasn't allegorizing either!!

The rest of your response is very nice "reverse engineering." We call it "reading INTO scripture" when the truth is supposed to be gleaned OUT of scripture.

When James, the Lord's own brother, wrote his letter to the Jewish Christians which had been scattered abroad because of the persection from the religious authorites, he addressed it: "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." Seems to me that James considered the Christian Jews to actually be the literal TRIBES of Israel.

Agreed. But think about what you just said Skypair. Abraham was not looking for an earthly kingdom to be set up, he was looking for the coming of the heavenly kingdom, which will happen not during the millennium, but after it, in the new heavens and earth.

You're right. But don't you think you might have some scripture missing? "Jesus will come again, physically, there will be a resurrection and judgment of all men, the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire,..." (Rev 20:10-15) What about Rev 20:1-9???

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

Pilgrimer, I want to thank you for such a detailed outline of your views. Many of things that you write I have thought for many years, but I pushed it aside thinking I was totally wrong because of what I was being taught in church, beliefs of my fellow church members and books like the Left Behind series (I read most of them). I have always just accepted the pre-trib/pre-mil view because I am not as knowledgeable as all the wonderful pastors and scholars that adhere to it. But I know better than to put my trust in mere men. That's why I decided to start a study on my own of God's word. Actually, I feel led to do it.

I don't know where I'll end up with my own personal views, but I think it is my responsibility to study each and every view on this subject. So I appreciate the time you have put into this and also appreciate your graceful attitude.

As I have said before, if this was a simple subject, we would all just read the Bible and understand it immediately. But for most people I've talked to, it takes years of study and even then we can't know 100% that we've gotten it right. It is very humbling.

One thing I would like to ask you is where did you get your historical facts, like the 7 year war and the different leaders during that war? Why has all of this history been ignored by the church? (rhetorical question) I certainly haven't heard of it. How can we possibly get the full meaning of scripture without taking into account events of history?

Again, thanks! :thumbs:

 

[Pilgrimer]

As Homer Simpson would say, "Dhaaww!!"

Paul wasn't allegorizing either!!

The rest of your response is very nice "reverse engineering." We call it "reading INTO scripture" when the truth is supposed to be gleaned OUT of scripture.

Actually Skypair I quoted Scripture to support everything I said.

The New Testament teaches that the church, the body of Christ, is the New Covenant "temple" or dwelling place of God in this earth. That's not reverse engineering, it's the Gospel.

The New Testament also teaches that Jesus is already seated on his throne in Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem, the faithful city, not the old earthly Jerusalem which shed the blood of the righteous. Again, that's not reading anything into Scripture, that's the Gospel.

And the New Testament also teaches that a remnant of the literal Jewish nation will be saved, 144,000, 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes. Once again, that's the Gospel.

You're right. But don't you think you might have some scripture missing? "Jesus will come again, physically, there will be a resurrection and judgment of all men, the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire,..." (Rev 20:10-15) What about Rev 20:1-9???

Revelation 20:1-6 is where we are now, in the 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd Advents.

Revelation 20:7-10 is the end of the 1000 years and the events that occur immediately before the 2nd Advent.

Revelation 20:11-15 is the 2nd Advent and the resurrection and final judgment.

Revelation 21:1-8 is the new heavens and new earth. It is in the new heavens and new earth that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and Jesus dwells physically with us on earth. In the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth, not in the old Jerusalem in the old earth during the millennium.

The millennium began with the institution of the New Covenant in 30 A.D. and the end of the Old Covenant in 66-73 A.D. That all happened in the generation of the 1st Advent of Christ.

That is followed by the 1000 years when the saints reign with Jesus.

Then the 1000 years comes to an end with the last attempt of the enemy to destroy God's people, the fire of God coming down to devour them, the 2nd Advent of Jesus, the resurrection and judgment, the new heavens and earth, and Jesus physically dwelling with us in a world forever cleansed of sin and liberated from death. Jesus will not dwell with us physically in this earth, but in the new earth, after it has been cleansed and purged by fire.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[MB]

Actually Skypair I quoted Scripture to support everything I said.

The New Testament teaches that the church, the body of Christ, is the New Covenant "temple" or dwelling place of God in this earth. That's not reverse engineering, it's the Gospel.

The New Testament also teaches that Jesus is already seated on his throne in Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem, the faithful city, not the old earthly Jerusalem which shed the blood of the righteous. Again, that's not reading anything into Scripture, that's the Gospel.

And the New Testament also teaches that a remnant of the literal Jewish nation will be saved, 144,000, 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes. Once again, that's the Gospel.



Revelation 20:1-6 is where we are now, in the 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd Advents.

Revelation 20:7-10 is the end of the 1000 years and the events that occur immediately before the 2nd Advent.

Revelation 20:11-15 is the 2nd Advent and the resurrection and final judgment.

Revelation 21:1-8 is the new heavens and new earth. It is in the new heavens and new earth that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and Jesus dwells physically with us on earth. In the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth, not in the old Jerusalem in the old earth during the millennium.

The millennium began with the institution of the New Covenant in 30 A.D. and the end of the Old Covenant in 66-73 A.D. That all happened in the generation of the 1st Advent of Christ.

That is followed by the 1000 years when the saints reign with Jesus.

Then the 1000 years comes to an end with the last attempt of the enemy to destroy God's people, the fire of God coming down to devour them, the 2nd Advent of Jesus, the resurrection and judgment, the new heavens and earth, and Jesus physically dwelling with us in a world forever cleansed of sin and liberated from death. Jesus will not dwell with us physically in this earth, but in the new earth, after it has been cleansed and purged by fire.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I only have one thing to say about this. If the millennium started two thousand years ago and we are still in it then we are in the second millennium. Since there is no mention of a second millennium in the bible you must be wrong. This is the kind of thing men come up with when they allegorize scripture. After all God didn't really mean what He said That's why He made up this lie about it.
Do you realize that anything not true in scripture makes the whole of it worthless.
MB