Amillennialism

[skypair]

I am familiar with the Rabbinical messianic doctrine about the seven days of creation representing the 7 chiliads (1000's) of years, the doctrine that was picked up and taught as millennialism in the early church.

From that perspective, I would have to say that we are now living in the last day, the 7th day,..."

Which to you isn't a 1000 year period at all, right, but a 2000-year-and-counting? Why don't you just admit that we are in the 2000 year era that PRECEDES the 1000 year "7th day??" Are you having trouble counting?? :BangHead:

I think the 8th day will be the beginning of the new creation, the new heavens and new earth. And since that day will be the beginning of eternity, I assume there will be no more days, for time itself will cease to exist.

Two points: 1) you are right about the 8th day being the "new creation" -- God's kingdom but the 7th is entirely missing from your chronology. 2) Larkin says that eternity will, according to scripture that I will look up, consist of MANY 1000 year periods of which the 8th day is the first.

OK, now comes challenge time. You are aware and apparently believe the "Rabbibical Messianic doctrine" of creation. Account for the time and, as I know you will, if you come up short -- properly dispose of your "radioactive" eschatology for the biblical one.

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pilgrimer: // ... I assume there will be no more days, for time itself will cease to exist. //

IMHO 'Time' is an infinite subset of the infinite Set: 'Eternity'.

'Eternity' is an infinite set of all times possible, past, and future.
'Time' is an infinite set from the Creation of the Universe to all future times.
('Time' is also used to denote that 'opportunity has run out'. I watched #5 Texas play #1 Oklahoma. The 'time ran out' for Oklahoma and the score was Texas: 45, Oklahoma 35. Oklahoma has no more opportunity to replay the 11 Oct 2008 game and no more opportunity to add to the score (Legal Games Reviews not withstanding ).

The lead devil shall run out of time (opportunity):
Rev 12:12 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Therefore reioyce, ye heauens, and ye that dwell in them. Wo to the inhabitants of the earth, and of the sea: for the deuill is come downe vnto you, which hath great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

A world ripe for judgment shall run out of time (opportunity):

Rev 10:6-7 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And sware by him that liueth for euermore, which created heauen, and the thinges that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the thinges that therein are, that time should be no more.
7 But in the dayes of the voyce of the seuenth Angel, when he shall beginne to blow the trumpet, euen the mysterie of God
shalbe finished, as he hath declared to his seruants the Prophets.

Those washed in the Blood of Jesus shall never run out of time (tick-tock-stuff)

Rev 1:6-7 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And made vs Kings and Priests vnto God euen his Father, to him I say be glory, and dominion for euermore, Amen.
7 Beholde, he commeth with cloudes, and euery eye shall see him: yea, euen they which pearced him thorowe: and all kinreds of the earth shall waile before him, Euen so, Amen.

BTW, that is a good verse cause it talks about all the kindreds* of the Earth wailing before Messiah Jesus -- I know when Jesus comes to get me I'm going to tell my dead wife "See I told you He would come Get us First". I'm not going to be sad and wail when Messiah Jesus comes to get me for I am one of His.


* note - there appears to be no modern equivalent of 1599 'kindreds'???

 

[Amy.G]

It hasn't transpired yet, Amy. That's why you can't find it.


skypair

Thank you for your concern Sky. I need people looking out for me. :thumbs:

But why do you say that the war that occured from 66AD to 73AD hasn't transpired yet? It's a historical fact. Jesus told the disciples it would happen and that the temple would be destroyed along with Jerusalem. (Matt 24)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you for your concern Sky. I need people looking out for me. :thumbs:

But why do you say that the war that occured from 66AD to 73AD hasn't transpired yet? It's a historical fact. Jesus told the disciples it would happen and that the temple would be destroyed along with Jerusalem. (Matt 24)

After the AoD (Abomination of Desolation, Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem) Jesus says this will happen:

Mat 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the worlde to this time, nor shalbe.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortened, there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake those dayes shalbe shortened.

Yes, the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 0070. And following it was great termoil in the Roman Empire. But considered worldwide, there was no threat that had it gone on longer there 'should no flesh be saved'. This was not the worse thing that ever happened in the World.

I cite things worse to Jews than what happened

In the 13th Century (1201-1300) 1/4 of the Jews (probably 1 million) of the northern Turkish Empires were killed by the Mongol Hordes.

In the 14th Century (1301-1400) 1/4 of the Jews (probably 2 million) in Europe were killed by the Bubonic Plague (have you had your Bubonic Plague inoculation lately?) also known as the 'Black Plagu'

In the 1940s some 6,000,000 Jews were killed by Germans under the leadership of Adolf Hitler.

 

[Amy.G]

This was not the worse thing that ever happened in the World.

I cite things worse to Jews than what happened

In the 13th Century (1201-1300) 1/4 of the Jews (probably 1 million) of the northern Turkish Empires were killed by the Mongol Hordes.

In the 14th Century (1301-1400) 1/4 of the Jews (probably 2 million) in Europe were killed by the Bubonic Plague (have you had your Bubonic Plague inoculation lately?) also known as the 'Black Plagu'

In the 1940s some 6,000,000 Jews were killed by Germans under the leadership of Adolf Hitler.

But this was the worst thing that ever happened to the Jews because God completely obliterated the whole OT system of worship and sacrifice, even destroying the temple and then the horrible killing of the Jews for several more years. This was without a doubt God's judgment against unrepentant and unbelieving Jews. This judgment put a final end to the OT covenant.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mankind has the ability now to do everything save one that is talked about in the book of Revelation. Mankind can duplicate every curse in the book of Revelation. (In fact, we can destroy all flesh). We humans cannot, however, duplicate the rapture (CAUGHT UP). Only God can do that.

God has not done it yet.

QED, a-mills don't have a verse to hang their hat upon.

 

[Pilgrimer]

You are aware and apparently believe the "Rabbibical Messianic doctrine" of creation . . .

I am very much aware of the doctrines of Rabbinic Judaism, but no, I don't believe them. After all, if the Rabbis understood messianic prophecy, they would follow Jesus.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Marcia]

Hmm. Israel means Israel, but all doesn't mean all?

But you started out saying that premillennialism had to be correct because "all Israel" has not been saved and this verse says they will be. Now you're saying "all" Israel doesn't have to be saved, "most" of Isarel could be saved and they would count as the nation. But what if it just means "a lot" of Jews will be saved? How many have to be saved to count as Israel?

Well, there are different views on this.
The first view considered is the view that “all Israel” consists of both Jews and Gentiles, who together in one body constitute the church of Jesus Christ. Paul’s assertion in Romans 11:26, then, refers to the fact that all of the church, both Jew and Gentile, will be saved throughout the present age. A remnant of Jews continues to believe despite the rejection of the
majority of the nation, and Gentiles are also being saved alongside these Jews, and in the end, the
full number of spiritual Israel will be saved. An examination of the various theological and
exegetical arguments for this view, however, shows that this interpretation of the identity of “all
Israel” is not tenable.

The second view considered is the view that “all Israel” refers to the remnant of believing
Jews saved throughout the present age. In other words, when Paul writes, “all Israel will be
saved,” he refers to the spiritual Israel within physical Israel that is faithful to embrace salvation
through Christ. An examination of Romans 11:26 in its context, however, demonstrates that this
could not be Paul’s intended meaning of the designation “all Israel.”

The third view considered is the interpretation that “all Israel” refers to the ethnic nation
of Israel, which will be saved at the end of the present age. The salvation of “all Israel,” in other
words, refers to a time at the end of the age when the present hardening and rejection of the
covenant nation will be reversed, and God’s people Israel will repent and embrace the Messiah.
Proponents of this interpretation are divided on the precise meaning of “all Israel,” some seeing
it as a reference to the nation as a whole, but not to every single individual in that nation, and
others seeing it as a reference to every single individual in the nation.

Source
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...for+all+in+rom+11:26&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

 

[Marcia]

And this one...

All Israel will be saved: This does not mean there will be a time when every last person of Jewish descent will be saved. Instead, this is a time when Israel as a whole will be a saved people, and when the nation as a whole (especially its leadership) embraces Jesus Christ as Messiah.
i. Even as the apostasy of Israel did not extend to every last Jew, so the salvation of Israel will not extend to every last Jew; Paul is speak of the "mass" of Jews when he says all Israel. "All Israel is a recurring expression in Jewish literature, where it need not mean 'every Jew without a single exception', but 'Israel as a whole.' " (Bruce)
ii. And, when all Israel will be saved, they will be saved through embracing Jesus Christ as Messiah - as unlikely as this seems. They are not saved with some peculiar "Jewish" salvation.
iii. The Bible indicates this is a necessary condition for the return of Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:39, Zechariah 12:10-11). Jesus will not return again until God turns the focus of His saving mercies on Israel again, and Israel responds to God through Jesus Christ.

Source:
http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=011

 

[Pilgrimer]

Mat 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the worlde to this time, nor shalbe.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortened, there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake those dayes shalbe shortened.

"Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been made as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." Romans 9:27-29

Paul was quoting Isaiah 10:22-23:

"For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the mist of the land."

Which was referring to the "consumption" (full destruction, utter ruin, complete end) of the Jewish nation "determined" (decreed) in the Law.

"But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord they God, to observe to do all his comandments and his statutes which I commanded thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and over thee . . . The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption . . . and thy carcasses shall be meat unto all the fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and none shall fray them away . . . Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and pursue thee, and overtake thee, until thou be destroyed . . . The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth . . . and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trusteth, throughout all thy land . . . And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherein thine enemies shall distress thee . . . and ye shall be few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of the heaven for multitude . . . And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other . . . And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest . . . And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee . . . And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again; and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you." Excerpts from Deuteronomy 28

Every jot and tittle of this curse, the fulfillment of which makes up fully half of all Old Testament prophecy, and which was the subject of all the New Testament warnings of the judgment coming upon that generation, and the coming to pass of which is described from a spiritual perspective in the Revelation, came tragically to pass in the last 7 years of Old Covenant history.

The siege of Jerusalem is the only time in the recorded history of any nation that a people have made such an unholy choice as to cannibalize their own children rather than surrender to the enemy.

So it was written, so it was done.

"Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps that never gave suck." Luke 23:28-29

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Ed Edwards]

//The siege of Jerusalem is the only time in the recorded history of any nation that a people have made such an unholy choice as to cannibalize their own children rather than surrender to the enemy.//

Don't skip the research side of making weird statements.

The Ukraine, Stalin created a man-made famine in 1932/33

http://action-ukraine-report.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html

// The Ukrainians call it the Holodomor - the Hunger.

// Millions starved as Soviet troops and secret policemen raided their villages, stole the harvest and all the food in villagers' homes. They dropped dead in the streets, lay dying and rotting in their houses, and some women became so desperate for food that they ate their own children. If they managed to fend off starvation, they were deported and shot in their hundreds of thousands. //

as many as 9,000,000 were killed. I wonder how many were Jews?

What little research I've done indicates that in sieges and famines that child eating is common by parents. Apparently it is moral to do mass suicide to avoid eating children. Apparently it is moral to NOT share your kids with the neighbors.

The Great Tribulation Jesus talked about on Earth after the mid-tribulation period crises will be the worse thing that ever happens on earth before now, now, or in the future of the Earth. It has not happened yet.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

The Roman destruction of the Jewish province doesn't show up - small stuff, considered on a world wide basis.

Why do some people believe (what might have been a local Babylonian flood) was world wide and some but don't believe that the prophecies of Jesus were world wide (but are local in the Jerusalem area)?

What worse then these could happen?

1. A 'small nuclear war' like between Pakistan & India - 120 to 400 million dead
2. all out nuclear war between USofA (white star) Russia (red star) & China (yellow star) - 2,000 (33%) Million to 6,000 million (97%)

But Jesus said that the Great Tribulation would be the worse thing that ever happens on the Earth

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I have a simple question to ask you. Did Jesus and Apostle Paul both teaching millennial or "one thousand years" in the four gospels and 13 epistles of Paul?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[skypair]

But why do you say that the war that occured from 66AD to 73AD hasn't transpired yet? It's a historical fact. Jesus told the disciples it would happen and that the temple would be destroyed along with Jerusalem. (Matt 24)

You said 7 year war. How did you come up with 7 year war if it isn't taught?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I am very much aware of the doctrines of Rabbinic Judaism, but no, I don't believe them. After all, if the Rabbis understood messianic prophecy, they would follow Jesus.

Well, the other problem is that weren't not in the 7th millennia from Adam. By the Jewish calendar -- they should know, they kept the "books" -- we're in the year 5769, the 6th millennia.

skypair

 

[Pilgrimer]

Well, there are different views on this.

I do not believe the first view is true, “all Israel” does not include Gentiles. The church includes Gentiles, who become joint-heirs with the Jews through adoption, but they are still Gentiles and they are counted among "the nations of them which are saved,” they are not counted among the 144,000 redeemed of Israel. But “Israel,” in both the broader sense of all the physical descendants of Abraham, and in the narrower sense of the elect sons of Abraham, always refers to Jews.

Now true, Israel, both the saints and sinners among that people, are examples (1 Corinthians 10:11), and everything that happened in the life of that nation has some very profound, grave and ultimately saving lessons for the rest of the world (especially the church, of which Israel of old was another of those “types”). Lessons about who God is and what He is like, as well as who we humans are and what we are like. There is much to be learned about God and the church by studying the Old Testament and it's history of God and the Jewish nation.

The Jewish people, as a whole, will always have a special place in God’s plan of salvation, for after all, it was through them that He accomplished it. It’s just a sad and tragic truth that the great majority of Jews will never enjoy the blessings of that salvation in which their fathers played such a blessed part, but they live and die as strangers and aliens from the Kingdom of God and His Christ.

--------------------------------

I am closer to the second view, but I don’t agree that “all Israel” refers only to the remnant of believing Jews saved throughout the present age. It also includes all those godly men and women of old who died in faith looking forward to and trusting in what we now look back upon, the saving work of God accomplished through Christ at Calvary. Now true, those on the other side of the Cross did not understand how that salvation was to be accomplished, but what mattered is that they believed it would be accomplished, and lived and died in faith trusting that what God had promised, He would bring to pass. The blood of Christ has redeemed their souls just as surely as it has our own.

So I believe the "all Israel" that "shall be saved" is that remnant of the Jewish nation that numbers 144,000, 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes, which I believe is a figurative number that represents all the Jewish saints of all time, past, present, and future, and which is symoblized by the number 144,000 becuase it is, in truth, only a very small remnant of the whole nation, ergo, "And though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall be saved." (Romans 9:27)

--------------------------------------

I do not agree with the third view for all the reasons stated above, plus, I have yet to see any scriptural support for it, just this tired and dogged devotion to “all Israel” being “all Jews,” or as you pointed out, some number of Jews, apparently any number of Jews as long as it’s not that number of Jews who have already been saved.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Ed, I think perhaps you misunderstood my point. I said the siege of Jerusalem was the only time in history that a people were so stiff-necked and rebellious that they chose to resort to cannabalizing their own children rather than lay down their arms and surrender. The famine and horrors that were visited upon Jerusalem during the siege were not forced upon them by the Romans, Titus repeatedly offered them terms of peace. At one point, after witnessing the mass starvation that was mowing down the populace, Titus even had his army load up wagons of food and parade them beneath the city walls, offering the Jews peace terms which included amnesty as well as providing them with food and medical care . . . but they would not. They chose to continue their rebellion even in the face of such horrific fruit that choice bore. As terrible as the calamities you mentioned were, at least the people who were brought to such dire straits had no choice, they were being forced to such extremes.

But be that as it may, you are assuming that the terribleness of the great tribulation would be defined as the total number of deaths in some worldwide catastrophy, but that's not the case:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

The above, which is Luke's record of what Jesus said (unlike Matthew's Gospel which was written primarily to Jews who were educated in the Law, Luke's Gospel is written primarily to Gentiles so he tends to spell things out a bit more clearly), explains rather clearly that the great tribulation would not be a world-wide event, but a time in Judaea that would be unlike any before or since in which the days of vengeance would be visited upon the land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem in order that everything written in the Law and the Prophets might be fulfilled . . . including the cannabilizing of their own children written in the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 28:54)

So while I understand you view the time of great tribulation as a yet future world-wide catastrophy, I do not agree, and for very sound scriptural reasons.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Amy.G]

You said 7 year war. How did you come up with 7 year war if it isn't taught?

skypair

From Answers.com:
Flavius Josephus is best known for his histories of the Jews, including a first-hand account of the revolt against the Romans (66-73 A.D.) and historical confirmation of the existence and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. A Jew of priestly and royal descent, Joseph ben Matthias (or Mattathias) was put in charge of Galilee and took part in the 66 A.D. revolt against Rome. His forces overwhelmed, he surrendered to the Roman Vespasian after a seven-week siege. Joseph won the favor of Vespasian, who became emperor after Nero committed suicide. Joseph adopted the Roman name Flavius Josephus and spent his career under the patronage of Vespasian and his successors (Titus and Domitian). Late in life Josephus wrote his History of the Jewish War, first in Aramaic, then Greek. His Antiquities of the Jews is a history from creation to 66 A.D. and mentions Jesus, John the Baptist and James, the martyred brother of Jesus. Although his original texts have been altered over the centuries, most scholars agree that he is one of the best sources of extra-biblical information for the early Christian era.


This is but one of many, many articles you can find on the web. Why isn't it taught? I have no idea.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Well, the other problem is that weren't not in the 7th millennia from Adam. By the Jewish calendar -- they should know, they kept the "books" -- we're in the year 5769, the 6th millennia.

skypair

"They should know"?!? Then follow them.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[MB]

Who has convinced you that every word in the Bible must be taken literally? Perhaps we should not allegorize Jesus and claim he is the Lamb of God.

1. The same person who Convinced me of Christ
2. I think you're educated enough to know the difference between example and allegories. Jesus was the sacrifce for our sins

Actually, God didn’t really mean Jesus is a lamb, he’s not, he’s a man. That doesn’t make God a liar, God meant Jesus is a lamb . . . spiritually speaking.

Wrong; Jesus is the Lamb of God. In other words He is God's sacrifice for our sins. He is both man and God. Not just a man.

I have found that the Bible actually does a lot of that . . . speaks of spiritual things, of things so profoundly mysterious, and breath-takingly glorious, they bring us to our knees . . . and it does so using plain old every-day words. Imagine that!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

And it does it with out even one misrepresentation. God is not a God of confusion.
MB