Amillennialism

[MB]

You must have missed the part where he said the 1000 years (millennium) is figurative language, not a literal number.

Who do believe will be in the literal millennium?

No I didn't miss it. He allegorized the term millenium when there is no reason for it but his own imagination. There is no reason to assume it to be plural or not a literal number. It's not a literal number to him because it's what he has chosen to believe. Just because he believes it doesn't make it true. Ask him to show scriptural support for his allegory. You will find he has none.

Those who will live during the millenium will be those who survive the tribulation, and those who are saved through faith in Christ.
MB

 

[Amy.G]

No I didn't miss it. He allegorized the term millenium when there is no reason for it but his own imagination. There is no reason to assume it to be plural or not a literal number. It's not a literal number to him because it's what he has chosen to believe. Just because he believes it doesn't make it true. Ask him to show scriptural support for his allegory. You will find he has none.

Those who will live during the millenium will be those who survive the tribulation, and those who are saved through faith in Christ.
MB

Is this a literal number?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[MB]

Is this a literal number?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Since I haven't experienced time in terms of eternity and I'm am taking Peter at his word, and his words are in scripture. I would have to say it is. As long as we remember that there is no end to eternity though there may be an end to each day, in eternity. Since God rested after creation then there is reason to think that there will be different times while in eternity. Meaning each time-space will come to an end.
Why would you think it to be double the thousand years? That would be us making the allegory not a representation made in scripture.
You see Pilgrimer has made the allegory of it being two thousand years not scripture.
MB

 

[Pilgrimer]

[/color]
Jesus is the Lamb of God. In other words. He is God's sacrifice for our sins.

Yes, I know. That was never at issue.

He is both man and God. Not just a man.

Sigh~ I never said Jesus is just a man.

I said Jesus is not literally a four-legged, wooly sheep. Literally speaking Jesus is a man, a human being, not just a man, but certainly not a four-footed beastie.

And it does it with out even one allegory. God is not a God of confusion.
MB

When the Scripture says Jesus is a "Lamb" it is self-evident that the word is not being used in a literal fashion, but is being used figuratively.

The original point seems to have been lost, so allow me to recast the issue.

Of course some words in the Bible have a figurative meaning. And to reject a figurative meaning for no reason other than the fact that it is figurative is a bit disingenuous.

Can you offer one scripture to support taking the 1000 years in which the saints of God rule with Christ as a literal 1000 year period?

I can show you scriptures which state that Jesus will not reign for 1000 years, but he will reign forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Is this a literal number?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Amy, it might help to know what Peter was referring to, you know he was quoting David here, and no, he wasn't giving some mathematical formula to figure out the meaning of prophecy . . .

"Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalms 90:1-4

I believe what David is so poetically saying here, and which Peter was reminding us of, is that when it comes to the working out of God's salvation of man, what is a thousand years to God? Is that not but a blink of the eye?

I suppose when we reach the other side of glory, and see things from the perspective of eternity, a thousand years will seem to us but a drop in the bucket too . . .

"When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we first begun."
{Amazing Grace}

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

No I didn't miss it. He allegorized the term millenium when there is no reason for it but his own imagination. There is no reason to assume it to be plural or not a literal number. It's not a literal number to him because it's what he has chosen to believe. Just because he believes it doesn't make it true. Ask him to show scriptural support for his allegory. You will find he has none.

That's not true. I have offered pages and pages of scriptural support for taking the 1000 years to be figurative for this long Gospel age in which we believers are now living and reigning with Christ.

I believe it is your view that is faulty in that it completely leaves out the whole church age, which has now lasted 2000 years and counting . . .

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Marcia]

Is this a literal number?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Amy, we can't apply this verse, which is actually talking about the fact that God is beyond time and not limited by it, to every mention of numbers in the bible. IOW, this verse does not mean other uses of a thousand years are figurative or are not literal.

This is the context:

7But by His word (R)the present heavens and earth are being reserved for (S)fire, kept for (T)the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, (U)beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and (V)a thousand years like one day. 9(W)The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but (X)is patient toward you, (Y)not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

It is talking about God's patience and how 1,000 years mean nothing to him.

2 Pet 3.8 is not telling us that every mention of a thousand years is figurative.

 

[Amy.G]

I also think the 1000 years in 2 Peter is figurative, but my point was that couldn't the 1000 years in Rev. also be figurative? How do you make the determination that one is literal and the other is figurative?

 

[Marcia]

I also think the 1000 years in 2 Peter is figurative, but my point was that couldn't the 1000 years in Rev. also be figurative? How do you make the determination that one is literal and the other is figurative?

Well, one could also ask: why read it as figurative? The general rule is to read things literally unless otherwise indicated.

I just posted something from Rev 10 on the MK thread. Here it is:
And he laid hold of the (C)dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and (D)bound him for a thousand years;

3and he threw him into the (E)abyss, and shut it and (F)sealed it over him, so that he would (G)not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4Then I saw (H)thrones, and (I)they sat on them, and (J)judgment was given to them And I saw (K)the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (L)testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (M)worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (N)mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (O)came to life and (P)reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (Q)This is the first resurrection.

There is nothing here to me to indicate reading this figuratively. Although we don't totally understand all the meanings here and how this transpires, it is pretty straightforward. Just because there are things referred to we don't understand does not make this passage figurative.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, one could also ask: why read it as figurative? The general rule is to read things literally unless otherwise indicated.

I just posted something from Rev 10 on the MK thread. Here it is:
And he laid hold of the (C)dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and (D)bound him for a thousand years;

3and he threw him into the (E)abyss, and shut it and (F)sealed it over him, so that he would (G)not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4Then I saw (H)thrones, and (I)they sat on them, and (J)judgment was given to them And I saw (K)the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (L)testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (M)worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (N)mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (O)came to life and (P)reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (Q)This is the first resurrection.

There is nothing here to me to indicate reading this figuratively. Although we don't totally understand all the meanings here and how this transpires, it is pretty straightforward. Just because there are things referred to we don't understand does not make this passage figurative.

Actually that passage is a good example of "figurativeness" :laugh:

There is a lot of figurative language in that passage. Beast, dragon, mark on the forehead or hand, pit/abyss...ect. Did the angel that threw the serpent into the abyss use a literal chain?

These words are symbols for something that is literal, but they are not literal in themselves. So it seems conceivable that the 1000 years could also be a symbol for "a long time".

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

I can show you scriptures which state that Jesus will not reign for 1000 years, but he will reign forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Yep, I can show you those scriptures also.
I also think I can find where Jesus said His Kingdom was here RIGHT NOW.
And I can show a scripture that says that His Kingdom is within you RIGHT NOW.

So the Triune Lord has three kingdoms:

1. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and temporal Kingdom
2. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and forever Kingdom
3. a future, Heavenly, forever Kingdom

 

[skypair]

"They should know"?!? Then follow them.

This anecdote suddenly reminds me of you. Winston Churchill once asked a lady, "Would you sleep with me for 1,000,000 pounds?"

"Why sure!" she responded.

"Would you sleep with me for 10 pounds?" he asked.

"No! What do you take me for, a harlot?" she reacted.

"Madam," Churchill said, "We have already established that. What we are trying to determine now is your price."

I'm suddenly getting that same message from you regarding your end times views. How many tidbits of truth did you have to discard in order to cobble together your eschatology?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Is this a literal number?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I explained this to pilgrimer already. It refers to the 7 day creation theory in which each "day" of creation represents 1000 years to be accomplished before the world is restored to God again. IOW, it is the "days" that are figurative, not the 1000 years.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Can you offer one scripture to support taking the 1000 years in which the saints of God rule with Christ as a literal 1000 year period?

Rev 20:6.

I can show you scriptures which state that Jesus will not reign for 1000 years, but he will reign forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.

And you would be reading your eschatology INTO scripture, not reading eschatology OUT of scripture. In this very example, you would obviously say that because He reigns forever, He doesn't reign only 1000 years -- that all such references are invalid, allegorical.

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

So the Triune Lord has three kingdoms:

1. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and temporal Kingdom
2. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and forever Kingdom
3. a future, Heavenly, forever Kingdom

It looks like the same kingdom to me. One kingdom, not 3.

 

[MB]

Yes, I know. That was never at issue.



Sigh~ I never said Jesus is just a man.

You didn't say He is God either but, you did say He is a man. God man yes. Plain old every day man no.

I said Jesus is not literally a four-legged, wooly sheep. Literally speaking Jesus is a man, a human being, not just a man, but certainly not a four-footed beastie.

Christ being called a Lamb is a representation of the Old Testament sacrifice. Your's making the millenuim plural is not.

When the Scripture says Jesus is a "Lamb" it is self-evident that the word is not being used in a literal fashion, but is being used figuratively.

The original point seems to have been lost, so allow me to recast the issue.

Of course some words in the Bible have a figurative meaning. And to reject a figurative meaning for no reason other than the fact that it is figurative is a bit disingenuous.

Can you offer one scripture to support taking the 1000 years in which the saints of God rule with Christ as a literal 1000 year period?
[/quote]
Rev 20:2-7 You will also notice it doesn't say thousands of years. It says a thousand years.

I can show you scriptures which state that Jesus will not reign for 1000 years, but he will reign forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

To God's kingdom there isn't any end to it. There is a difference between an earthly kingdom and a heavenly kingdom. For some reason you have confused the two.
The prince of the air rules earth at present. Though God is always in charge and limits Satan. We are not in the kingdom at present. Not only that you haven't got one scripture that confirms we are.
MB

 

[Marcia]

Actually that passage is a good example of "figurativeness" :laugh:

There is a lot of figurative language in that passage. Beast, dragon, mark on the forehead or hand, pit/abyss...ect. Did the angel that threw the serpent into the abyss use a literal chain?

These words are symbols for something that is literal, but they are not literal in themselves. So it seems conceivable that the 1000 years could also be a symbol for "a long time".

I would say those terms are metaphors describing a real event. There's no reason to think 1,000 years is not 1,000 years from this passage.

 

[Ed Edwards]

It looks like the same kingdom to me. One kingdom, not 3.

Amen Sister Amy.G - you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

The Triune Lord has 3 kingdoms, not 1

// So the Triune Lord has three kingdoms:

1. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and temporal Kingdom
2. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and forever Kingdom
3. a future, Heavenly, forever Kingdom //

These kingdoms are each called 'the Kingdom of God'.

Triune humankind is divided into three parts:

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769 set of Editions):
Give none offense, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

Yet they are one humanity.

 

[Lukasaurus]

1. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and temporal Kingdom
2. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and forever Kingdom
3. a future, Heavenly, forever Kingdom //


I'm not sure that's correct.

Who said it in the first place is saying that there are two Kingdoms on earth now.

1. A Right now, spiritual kingdom - the Kingdom of God, which is within every believer
2. A Future time, earthly kingdom - the Kingdom of Heaven (on earth, as it is in heaven).
3. God's Eternal Heavenly Kingdom. It's future for us, but God is outside of time.

 

[Pilgrimer]

You didn't say He is God either . . .

My apologies, I am a Southern Pentecostal Baptist so I just assume, in a Baptist forum, that goes without saying.

Christ being called a Lamb is a representation of the Old Testament sacrifice.

Hmm, all of that just to make this simple point . . . that words in the Bible can have a figurative meaning . . . there is no law against it, and yet “allegorizing” is being thrown around as some kind of accusation bordering on heresy.

Your's making the millenuim plural . . .

And that’s wrong why?

Consider, the Revelation covers the period of time from the 1st coming of Christ to the end of the world, and between those two events there is only one long period of time mentioned, the thousand years. Now if that period is not this present Gospel Age, which is almost two millennia now and counting, then where is the Gospel Age? Where is two thousand years of Christian history, where is the church triumphant, where is the victory and power and authority of Jesus that you and I and countless multitudes for generations and generations have enjoyed right here on this earth, where is the Word of God liberating souls from hell, where are the saints of God arrayed in robes of white, sins washed in the blood of the Lamb, armed with spiritual armor and fighting the good fight, where is this present age when people are being born again into the Kingdom of God, where are the present day blessings of the Cross, where is the Day of Salvation that you and I are living witnesses to, where is two millennia of the Spirit of Jesus Christ at work in this world, on this earth, redeeming men from hell and reconciling them with God? Where is this blessed Gospel age? Is it stuck in between some two little verses somewhere? Where is it if it’s not that long period of time when men who were dead in their trespasses and sins come alive in the spirit to live and reign with Christ?

I don’t believe I am the one who is confused here, about the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of Christ.

The prince of the air rules earth at present.

And therein lies the reason the church in America is so weak and ineffectual! How can you possibly believe that, let alone confess it? As though Christ has not literally come down from heaven to this earth and literally defeated sin, death, and all the power of hell? Hasn’t anyone told you that Satan is a defeated foe, that the victory is won, and Jesus Christ reigns? Every day, in front of your very eyes, you see the chains that bind souls to the darkness broken, and souls snatched from the very jaws of hell, washed in the blood of the Lamb, and raised up in the spirit to walk with God! And yet you don’t know who the real power is in this world? Perhaps our churches need to stop teaching eschatology and start preaching the Gospel again.

We are not in the kingdom at present. Not only that you haven't got one scripture that confirms we are.

“Give thanks unto the Father, which has made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who has delivered us from the kingdom of darkness . . . And has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son . . . In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.” Colossians 1:12-14

I used this particular verse because it makes it very clear that the kingdom we have been “translated” into is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, not some earthly kingdom of millennial interpretation, but into the Father’s Everlasting Kingdom of Heaven where the Son sits even now enthroned in glory holding in his hand power over every thing that exists.

That is the Jesus Christ that is revealed to my heart when I read “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” Allegorizing? The word the Bible uses is Spiritualizing! . . .

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.”

In Christ,
Pilgrimer