Amillennialism

[MB]

My apologies, I am a Southern Pentecostal Baptist so I just assume, in a Baptist forum, that goes without saying.

It does. Although it is in how you say it.

Hmm, all of that just to make this simple point . . . that words in the Bible can have a figurative meaning . . . there is no law against it, and yet “allegorizing” is being thrown around as some kind of accusation bordering on heresy.

Christ being called a Lamb of God, is God representation. Millenium being called two thousand years is man's. Can't you see the difference.

And that’s wrong why?

Consider, the Revelation covers the period of time from the 1st coming of Christ to the end of the world, and between those two events there is only one long period of time mentioned, the thousand years. Now if that period is not this present Gospel Age, which is almost two millennia now and counting, then where is the Gospel Age?

We are in the gospel age which didn't have a length of time mentioned for it. Except that the end would come when the gospel has been preached to all the nations and the great apostacy

.

Where is two thousand years of Christian history, where is the church triumphant, where is the victory and power and authority of Jesus that you and I and countless multitudes for generations and generations have enjoyed right here on this earth, where is the Word of God liberating souls from hell, where are the saints of God arrayed in robes of white, sins washed in the blood of the Lamb, armed with spiritual armor and fighting the good fight, where is this present age when people are being born again into the Kingdom of God, where are the present day blessings of the Cross, where is the Day of Salvation that you and I are living witnesses to, where is two millennia of the Spirit of Jesus Christ at work in this world, on this earth, redeeming men from hell and reconciling them with God? Where is this blessed Gospel age? Is it stuck in between some two little verses somewhere? Where is it if it’s not that long period of time when men who were dead in their trespasses and sins come alive in the spirit to live and reign with Christ?

If we are in the millenium and it is two thousand years or longer then the Word of God is not accurate. If this is the millenium where is New Jerusalem? Where is Christ? If this is the millenium and this is the kingdom of Christ where has His rule been. What part of this world is living in righteousness?

Satan still paces back and forth looking for whom he might devour. This doesn't sound like any millenial reign to me. Satan has been here doing his dirty deeds all along.

I don’t believe I am the one who is confused here, about the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of Christ.

Then you should be able to answer this;
How can you call this the millenium when Christ isn't ruling with a rod of iron. If He were why so much sin in the world for the last two thousand years.

And therein lies the reason the church in America is so weak and ineffectual! How can you possibly believe that, let alone confess it? As though Christ has not literally come down from heaven to this earth and literally defeated sin, death, and all the power of hell? Hasn’t anyone told you that Satan is a defeated foe, that the victory is won, and Jesus Christ reigns? Every day, in front of your very eyes, you see the chains that bind souls to the darkness broken, and souls snatched from the very jaws of hell, washed in the blood of the Lamb, and raised up in the spirit to walk with God! And yet you don’t know who the real power is in this world? Perhaps our churches need to stop teaching eschatology and start preaching the Gospel again.

If Jesus Christ in reigning over this world then Satan wouldn't have such a hold on the men of this world. Death was defeated too so why are so many dying?

“Give thanks unto the Father, which has made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who has delivered us from the kingdom of darkness . . . And has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son . . . In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.” Colossians 1:12-14

I used this particular verse because it makes it very clear that the kingdom we have been “translated” into is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, not some earthly kingdom of millennial interpretation, but into the Father’s Everlasting Kingdom of Heaven where the Son sits even now enthroned in glory holding in his hand power over every thing that exists.

That is the Jesus Christ that is revealed to my heart when I read “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” Allegorizing? The word the Bible uses is Spiritualizing! . . .

There is a huge difference between the rule over this earth and the rule over my heart. The kingdom spoken of here is with in me.

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.”

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

If I were you I would check that discernment because, if we discern anything that isn't in harmony with scripture then that discernment is wrong.
MB

 

[Pilgrimer]

We are in the gospel age which didn't have a length of time mentioned for it.

You're not just talking about the length of the Gospel age not being mentioned in the Revelation, the way you read it the Gospel age isn't mentioned at all! And yet, the entire Old Testament, from Genesis to Malachi, was all about the Gospel Age! And that Gospel Age is now twice as long as the "MK" and yet . . . it's not even mentioned?

Except that the end would come when the gospel has been preached to all the nations and the great apostacy

That was referring to the end of the Old Covenant age, not the end of the Gospel Age. The Gospel age will end with the final judgment against all those who have rejected the Gospel. Hmm, come to think of it, the Old Covenant days ended with the judgment of all those who broke covenant with God. The New Covenant days will end with the judgment of all those who refuse to covenant with God.

If we are in the millenium and it is two thousand years or longer then the Word of God is not accurate.

Not true, the premillennial view of what the Word of God speaks of in the Revelation is not accurate. The Word of God is actually very clear about all these things, as I've been pointing out.

If this is the millenium where is New Jerusalem?

In heaven. New Jerusalem won't descend out of heaven to this earth until the new heavens and new earth, not during the thousand years, but after, look where it happens in the Revelation. Look, just as we have to be cleansed of our sins and made new to be a fit dwelling place for God to dwell with us in the spirit, so too the earth itself and the heavens will have to pass through the lake of fire to be cleansed and purged of corruption before God can dwell with us in the flesh.

Where is Christ?

Right there, right beside you. And in you. And in all those who are in Him. Just because Jesus is not here physically does not mean he is not here, or that he is somehow powerless to exercise his authority in this earth, which authority he has given to us, so that we might reign right here right now on this earth. But we will reign in this world only to the degree that we reign over ourselves. It's not just about Jesus reigning over us, it's also about Jesus reigning on this earth through us, and us reigning with him. Yes, the old Liar roams about trying to destroy men and their lives, but the only way he can succeed is for those who have been given all power and authority in the name of Jesus to fail to exercise it. But God does not indiscriminately give out this power, we are only given it to the degree that we exercise it in our own hearts and minds.

If this is the millenium and this is the kingdom of Christ where has His rule been.

Busily storming the gates of hell and saving souls.
Overcoming the power of darkness in this world and setting captives free.
Engaged in the great work of changing lives right here on earth, from bitter, broken, slaves of sin to joyous, whole, servants of God.
What is this great work of God in this earth if it is not the triumph and power of Christ?

What part of this world is living in righteousness?

All those who dwell in Christ. Multitudes, generations and generations of multitudes, from every nation on earth, including Israel. All those who have been born into the kingdom of God are living in righteousness, and joy, and power in the Holy Ghost, are walking and talking with God, are dwelling in the light, are free to sink to our knees and in the spirit to come before the very throne of God in the Heaven of Heavens and speak with Him face to face. We don't have to wait until we die to be with God.

Then you should be able to answer this;
How can you call this the millenium when Christ isn't ruling with a rod of iron. If He were why so much sin in the world for the last two thousand years.[.quote]

My brother, Jesus ruling with a rod of iron doesn't mean he will beat the world into submission. It means his authority is unbreakable . . . absolute . . . there is no power above the name of Jesus. The only reason that the Lord allows evil to continue to exist is because when he destroys evil, once and for all, think of all the multitudes of people who will perish. Write it on the wall, that day will come, but until it does, every precious soul that is saved is "like a brand plucked from the burning." Jesus will continue to rule and to reign in the very midst of his enemies until he has won over all those enemies who will be his friends.

If Jesus Christ in reigning over this world then Satan wouldn't have such a hold on the men of this world. Death was defeated too so why are so many dying?

Because Jesus has defeated death, he has not yet destroyed it. That will happen at the end of the world: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14 It will be in the new heavens and new earth that . . . "there shall be no more death." Revelation 21:4

There is a huge difference between the rule over this earth and the rule over my heart.

But aren't you part of this "earth"?

The kingdom spoken of here is with in me.

God, and His Kingdom, is omnipresent.

If I were you I would check that discernment because, if we discern anything that isn't in harmony with scripture then that discernment is wrong.

MB

I have checked my discernment, and I have found that what it is not in harmony with is the premillennial interpretation of Scipture, but it is very much in harmony with the Gospel . . . at least, the Gospel in so far as I understand it.

In Christ,
Pigrimer

 

[MB]

You're not just talking about the length of the Gospel age not being mentioned in the Revelation, the way you read it the Gospel age isn't mentioned at all! And yet, the entire Old Testament, from Genesis to Malachi, was all about the Gospel Age! And that Gospel Age is now twice as long as the "MK" and yet . . . it's not even mentioned?

No where in scripture is there any time given for the length of the church age.

That was referring to the end of the Old Covenant age, not the end of the Gospel Age. The Gospel age will end with the final judgment against all those who have rejected the Gospel. Hmm, come to think of it, the Old Covenant days ended with the judgment of all those who broke covenant with God. The New Covenant days will end with the judgment of all those who refuse to covenant with God.

Not according to my Bible.

Not true, the premillennial view of what the Word of God speaks of in the Revelation is not accurate. The Word of God is actually very clear about all these things, as I've been pointing out.

If any part of scripture is not accrate then we may as well throw it all out

In heaven. New Jerusalem won't descend out of heaven to this earth until the new heavens and new earth, not during the thousand years, but after, look where it happens in the Revelation. Look, just as we have to be cleansed of our sins and made new to be a fit dwelling place for God to dwell with us in the spirit, so too the earth itself and the heavens will have to pass through the lake of fire to be cleansed and purged of corruption before God can dwell with us in the flesh.

Is this your word of knowledge? because you didn't get this from scripture.

Right there, right beside you. And in you. And in all those who are in Him. Just because Jesus is not here physically does not mean he is not here, or that he is somehow powerless to exercise his authority in this earth, which authority he has given to us, so that we might reign right here right now on this earth. But we will reign in this world only to the degree that we reign over ourselves. It's not just about Jesus reigning over us, it's also about Jesus reigning on this earth through us, and us reigning with him. Yes, the old Liar roams about trying to destroy men and their lives, but the only way he can succeed is for those who have been given all power and authority in the name of Jesus to fail to exercise it. But God does not indiscriminately give out this power, we are only given it to the degree that we exercise it in our own hearts and minds.

Christ is at the right hand of the Father. It's the Holy Spirit that dwells with in me.

Busily storming the gates of hell and saving souls.
Overcoming the power of darkness in this world and setting captives free.
Engaged in the great work of changing lives right here on earth, from bitter, broken, slaves of sin to joyous, whole, servants of God.
What is this great work of God in this earth if it is not the triumph and power of Christ?

This is all the work of Holy Spirit. The work of Christ was finished on the cross.

All those who dwell in Christ. Multitudes, generations and generations of multitudes, from every nation on earth, including Israel. All those who have been born into the kingdom of God are living in righteousness, and joy, and power in the Holy Ghost, are walking and talking with God, are dwelling in the light, are free to sink to our knees and in the spirit to come before the very throne of God in the Heaven of Heavens and speak with Him face to face. We don't have to wait until we die to be with God.

I never said we did.

Then you should be able to answer this;
How can you call this the millenium when Christ isn't ruling with a rod of iron. If He were why so much sin in the world for the last two thousand years.

My brother, Jesus ruling with a rod of iron doesn't mean he will beat the world into submission. It means his authority is unbreakable . . . absolute . . . there is no power above the name of Jesus. The only reason that the Lord allows evil to continue to exist is because when he destroys evil, once and for all, think of all the multitudes of people who will perish. Write it on the wall, that day will come, but until it does, every precious soul that is saved is "like a brand plucked from the burning." Jesus will continue to rule and to reign in the very midst of his enemies until he has won over all those enemies who will be his friends.

This is what gets me about you. If you don't believe in the Bible why bother?

Because Jesus has defeated death, he has not yet destroyed it. That will happen at the end of the world: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14 It will be in the new heavens and new earth that . . . "there shall be no more death." Revelation 21:4
But aren't you part of this "earth"?

Nope I'm not part of this earth

God, and His Kingdom, is omnipresent.


I have checked my discernment, and I have found that what it is not in harmony with is the premillennial interpretation of Scipture, but it is very much in harmony with the Gospel . . . at least, the Gospel in so far as I understand it.

In Christ,
Pigrimer

The only people I ever heard of who believe we are in the kingdom age right now are the Jehovah's Witnesses.
MB

 

[Ed Edwards]

1. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and temporal Kingdom
2. a RIGHT NOW, Earthly, and forever Kingdom
3. a future, Heavenly, forever Kingdom //


I'm not sure that's correct.

Who said it in the first place is saying that there are two Kingdoms on earth now.

1. A Right now, spiritual kingdom - the Kingdom of God, which is within every believer
2. A Future time, earthly kingdom - the Kingdom of Heaven (on earth, as it is in heaven).
3. God's Eternal Heavenly Kingdom. It's future for us, but God is outside of time


.

You said it much better than I did. Can I use your list without attribution? With attribution?

 

[Ed Edwards]

// The only people I ever heard of who believe we are in the kingdom age right now are the Jehovah's Witnesses.
MB //

IMHO I am in the Kingdom of Messiah Yeshua RIGHT NOW. I will forever be in the Kingdom of Messiah Yeshua, the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of the Lord, the Kingdom of Christ.

Luk 17:20-21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And when hee was demaunded of the Pharises, when the kingdome of God shoulde come, he answered them, and said, The kingdome of God commeth not with obseruation.
21 Neither shall men say, Loe here, or lo there: for behold, the kingdome of God is within you.

Luk 1:31-34 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For loe, thou shalt conceiue in thy wobe, and beare a sonne, and shalt call his name Iesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Sonne of the most High, and the Lord God shall giue vnto him the throne of his father Dauid.
33 And hee shall reigne ouer the house of Iacob for euer, and of his kingdome shall bee none ende.
34 Then sayde Marie vnto the Angel, How shall this be, seeing I knowe not man?

Heb 1:8 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But vnto the Sonne he saith, O God, thy throne is for euer and euer: the scepter of thy kingdome is a scepter of righteousnes.

Explain it as you wish. I see nothing strange that the KING OF KINGS can have multiple Kingdoms over which he is Lord and King.

I'd rather be a beggar in the Kingdom of the Lord than a King in an earthly Kingdom of human beans.

 

[skypair]

You're not just talking about the length of the Gospel age not being mentioned in the Revelation, the way you read it the Gospel age isn't mentioned at all! And yet, the entire Old Testament, from Genesis to Malachi, was all about the Gospel Age! And that Gospel Age is now twice as long as the "MK" and yet . . . it's not even mentioned?

The "gospel age" is mentioned in Rev 2-3 quite extensively including the description of undiscerning, apostate church members who will be left behind (Rev 2:16, 3:3). :tear:

Not true, the premillennial view of what the Word of God speaks of in the Revelation is not accurate. The Word of God is actually very clear about all these things, as I've been pointing out.

Crystal clear -- you're just not "pointing out" ALL that scripture has to say about what you are pointing out. There are huge gaps in your knowledge as I just demonstrated regarding Rev 2-3.

What is this great work of God in this earth if it is not the triumph and power of Christ?

Spreading the gospel and making disciples. Have you heard of the "Great Commission?" You are NOT reigning in this capacity. You are the "messenger," the "ambassador," not the "master" nor "lord," in this world.

My brother, Jesus ruling with a rod of iron doesn't mean he will beat the world into submission.

It DOES mean that there will be a "pit" outside His city (the Jews call it "Gehenna") where the bodies of those who openly sin in rebelling against Him will be burned and their carcasses consumed by worms, Isa 66:24. Where do you see that today?

It means his authority is unbreakable . . . absolute . . . there is no power above the name of Jesus. The only reason that the Lord allows evil to continue to exist is because when he destroys evil, once and for all, think of all the multitudes of people who will perish.

Huh? His authority will be "unbreakable ... absolute" when He reigns on earth. Only at the end of 1000 years will He allow Satan to be released and raise a rebellion against Him. Whose "Bible" are YOU reading anyway?

Because Jesus has defeated death, he has not yet destroyed it. That will happen at the end of the world: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14 It will be in the new heavens and new earth that . . . "there shall be no more death." Revelation 21:4

"OK, boys and girls ... our selected scripture reading for today is Rev 20:14. Now don't peek at any of the texts around it that speak of 1000 years because I want to tell you what all this means." said teacher Pilgrimer.

I have checked my discernment, and I have found that what it is not in harmony with is the premillennial interpretation of Scipture, but it is very much in harmony with the Gospel . . . at least, the Gospel in so far as I understand it.

Oh, wait! Are you making an allegorical statement now, too?? One that definitely is not to be taken in the "literal" sense?? :laugh:

skypair

 

[Pilgrimer]

What is this great work of God in this earth if it is not the triumph and power of Christ?

"All power is given me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Amen.

Peace, love and joy to the saints!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[MB]

// The only people I ever heard of who believe we are in the kingdom age right now are the Jehovah's Witnesses.
MB //

IMHO I am in the Kingdom of Messiah Yeshua RIGHT NOW. I will forever be in the Kingdom of Messiah Yeshua, the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of the Lord, the Kingdom of Christ.

Luk 17:20-21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And when hee was demaunded of the Pharises, when the kingdome of God shoulde come, he answered them, and said, The kingdome of God commeth not with obseruation.
21 Neither shall men say, Loe here, or lo there: for behold, the kingdome of God is within you.

Luk 1:31-34 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For loe, thou shalt conceiue in thy wobe, and beare a sonne, and shalt call his name Iesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Sonne of the most High, and the Lord God shall giue vnto him the throne of his father Dauid.
33 And hee shall reigne ouer the house of Iacob for euer, and of his kingdome shall bee none ende.
34 Then sayde Marie vnto the Angel, How shall this be, seeing I knowe not man?

Heb 1:8 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But vnto the Sonne he saith, O God, thy throne is for euer and euer: the scepter of thy kingdome is a scepter of righteousnes.

Explain it as you wish. I see nothing strange that the KING OF KINGS can have multiple Kingdoms over which he is Lord and King.

I'd rather be a beggar in the Kingdom of the Lord than a King in an earthly Kingdom of human beans.

True Ed;
However Pilgrimer insist that the Kingdom age of God's millenial reign here on earth has been going on for the last two thousand years.
MB

 

[skypair]

"All power is given me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Yeah, you're going back to your "crayolas" --- but no sucking your thumb! :laugh:

What kind of response is that???

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

See the following post regarding the historical Baptist position on the millennium.

 

[OldRegular]

The dispensational error was introduced about 1830 by John Darby of the Plymouth [England] Brethern. Unfortunately this gross error was promulgated in America by the Scofield Reference Bible.

Historically the Baptists have been amillennial as shown in the following Confessions from the book Baptist Confessions of Faith by William Lumpkin.

The following are from Baptists bodies in England. The earliest and most significant confession of the Baptists in England, the London Confession of 1644 does not mention the resurrection and judgment but does affirm the return and triumph of Jesus Christ.

1. The Midland Association Confession [1655]

Article 16 [page 200].

“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

2. The Somerset Confession [1656]

Article XL [page 214].

“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”

3. The Standard Confession [1660]

Article XX [page 231].

“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

Article XXI [page 231].

“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

4. The Second London Confession [1677]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”

5. The Orthodox Creed [1679]

Article XLIX. Of the State of man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 333]

“The bodies of men after death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls, or spirits, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. And besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the holy scripture mentions none. At the last day such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their souls forever and forever, but the bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ, as a severe and just judge, be raised to dishonour; and the bodies of the just and righteous by His Spirit, as He is the head of the catholic Church, unto honour, and be made conformable with His glorious body, and shall enjoy everlasting life; in singing perpetual praises and hallelujahs to God for ever and ever. Amen.”

Article L. Of the last Judgment [page 334]

“And lastly, we believe God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to Whom all power, and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and shall receive a just sentence, according to what they have done in their bodies, whether good or evil, when God according to His purpose, will manifest the glory of His mercy, in the salvation of His elect, and of His justice in the eternal damnation of the wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of joy and glory, but the wicked who know not God, nor obey the gospel offered them in Christ, shall be cast into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. Amen.”


Confessions of Baptists in America

The following Confessions [12-17] are by American Baptists.

1. The Philadelphia Confession of Faith [1742]

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith was not printed in the referenced book but is apparently the same as the Second London Confession with the addition of two articles addressing singing in the church and the laying on of hands.

2. The Kehukee [North Carolina] Association [1777]

Article 14 [page 356].

“We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and a general judgment.”

3. The Sandy Creek Association [1777]

Article V [page 358].

“We believe that there will be a resurrection from the dead and a general or universal judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and punishment of the wicked will be eternal.”

4. The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367]

“We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

 

[Ed Edwards]

OldRegular in post #231 pasts & cuts an old old post:


items discussed here back in 2005::

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1310941#post1310941

The Midland Association Confession [1655]

Article 16 [page 200, Lumpkin].

“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of
all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves,
that all may receive according to what they have done
in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

This confession does not preclude my belief which is
that the Lord has appointed different times for different
groups of the just to "rise out of their graves, that all
may receive according to what they have done in their
bodies, be it good or evil"
and a seperate time for the unjust.

Thus i must agree to this x-trib nuteral confession.
Amen Feller Christians of the Midland Asso!

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular in post #231 pasts & cuts an old old post:


items discussed here back in 2005::

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1310941#post1310941

No Ed I did not cut and paste an old post.:laugh: Each time I read one of your posts I am reminded of the words of Jesus Christ as he spoke to the unbelieving Jews::wavey:

Matthew 13:13-15, KJV

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.:tear:

 

[Jerome]

Historically the Baptists have been amillennial

Old Regular, the early English Baptists were persecuted for believing what Scripture says about the Millennial Kingdom. Take for example, Baptist pastor Benjamin Keach, put in the pillory in 1664 for daring to print his catechism A Child's Instructor:

From the trial record:

Clerk reads [from Keach's catechism for children]. "Question: How then shall it go with the saints? Answer: Oh very well! it is the Day that they have long'd for: then they shall hear that Sentence, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you: And so shall they reign with Christ on the Earth a thousand Years, &c."
Judge: This is contrary to the Creed in the Book of Common-Prayer, and is an old Heresy, which was cast out of the Church a thousand Years ago, and was likewise condemned by the Council of Constance about five hundred Years ago, and hath lain dead ever since, till now this Rascal hath revived it.

....

Clerk: Also in another place thou hast wickedly and maliciously composed A Short Confession of Faith, in which thou hast affirmed thus, concerning the second Person in the Blessed Trinity, in these plain English words: "I also believe that he rose again the third Day from the Dead, and ascended into Heaven, and there now sitteth at the right hand of God the Father; and from thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be the Judge of the Quick and the Dead."
Judge: This is contrary to our Creed: for whereas he saith, "From thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be Judge both of the Quick and the Dead," our Creed only saith, "From thence he shall come to judge both the Quick and the Dead."

....

Judge: Benjamin Keach, you are here convicted of writing and publishing a seditious and scandalous Book, for which the Court's Judgment is this, and the Court doth award, That you shall go to Gaol for a Fortnight, without Bail or Manprise; and the next Saturday to stand upon the Pillory at Ailsbury for the space of two Hours, from Eleven of the clock to One, with a Paper upon your head with this Inscription, "For writing, printing, and publishing a schismatical Book, intitled, The Child's Instructor, or a New and Early Primmer." And the next Thursday to stand in the same manner, and for the same time, in the Market of Winslow; and there your Book shall be openly burnt before your Face by the common Hangman, in disgrace of you and your Doctrine. And you shall forfeit to the King's Majesty the sum of 20 l. and shall remain in Gaol until you find sureties for your good Behavior and Appearance at the next Assizes, there to renounce your Doctrine, and make such publick submission as shall be injoined you. Take him away, Keeper.
Keach: I hope I shall never renounce those Truths which I have written in that Book.

---A Complete Collection of State-Trials, and Proceedings upon High-Treason, and other Crimes and Misdemeanors; From the Reign of King Richard II. to the Reign of King George II.

Yes, Benjamin Keach, persecuted by the Church of England in 1664 for standing up for the Bible's Millennial Kingdom teaching, is the prominent Particular Baptist pastor who signed the 1689 London Baptist Confession.



In his book The World that Now is; and the World that is to Come: Or the First and Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Wherein several Prophecies not yet fulfilled are Expounded (1681), early English Particular Baptist pastor, Hanserd Knollys, expounds on the Bible's resurrection and millennium teaching:

"The Resurrection of the Dead hath this Order, and is described by the Apostle in this manner, to wit, Christ first, I. Cor. 15. 22, 23, 24. afterwards they that are Christ's at his Coming. But the rest of the Dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, Rev. 20. 5, 6. This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth, Rev. 5. 9, 10. . . . . After the Saints are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection, Rev. 20. 12, 13."

 

[OldRegular]

Jerome

Early Baptists were persecuted for many reasons but that does not negate the fact that the major Confessions of Faith of Baptists taught a general resurrection and judgment [Great White Throne Judgment] just as Scripture teaches. I recommend that all read John 5:28,29 with a mind uncorrupted by Darbyism.

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon in the 1800s, like prominent Baptist pastors Keach and Knollys of the 1600s, rejected amillennialism:

A confession of faith, circa 1890:

"We, the undersigned, banded together in Fraternal Union, . . . .
We hold and maintain the truths generally known as "the doctrines of grace." The Electing Love of God the Father, the Propitiatory and Substitutionary Sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, Regeneration by the Holy Ghost, the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness, the Justification of the sinner (once for all) by faith, his walk in newness of life and growth in grace by the active indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and the Priestly Intercession of our Lord Jesus, as also the hopeless perdition of all who reject the Savior, according to the words of the Lord in Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into eternal punishment,"—are, in our judgment, revealed and fundamental truths.
Our hope is the Personal Pre-millennial Return of the Lord Jesus in glory.

C. H. SPURGEON. . . ."

 

[OldRegular]

Jerome

Spurgeon is recognized as the prince of preachers, however, that does not make him infallible. In order to defend a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth John 5:28, 29 will have to be discarded. Furthermore, since this kingdom supposedly includes resurrected saints as well as mortals the Scripture teaching that mortal man cannot look upon the Glory of God and live will also have to be discarded.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is my evangelistic writing using my eschatology: pre-tribualtion rapture2, pre-millinnial Second Coming of Jesus, futuristic:

--------------------------

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/​

Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarily
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[skypair]

The dispensational error was introduced about 1830 by John Darby of the Plymouth [England] Brethern. Unfortunately this gross error was promulgated in America by the Scofield Reference Bible.

The dispensational TRUTH was introduced by JESUS in Mt 13 and CONFIRMED in ALL the Kingdom of Heaven Parables.

Unfortunately, there are many men who lack the spiritual ability it takes to understand parables. Pretty much like the "Israel" they claim to be a part of, they too are "wise in their own conceits" and "blind in part." Perhaps you are just unaware that EVERY denom since Jesus thought they either "replaced" Israel or were "included" in Israel. Either way, that is what made them "blind."

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

The dispensational TRUTH was introduced by JESUS in Mt 13 and CONFIRMED in ALL the Kingdom of Heaven Parables.

Unfortunately, there are many men who lack the spiritual ability it takes to understand parables. Pretty much like the "Israel" they claim to be a part of, they too are "wise in their own conceits" and "blind in part." Perhaps you are just unaware that EVERY denom since Jesus thought they either "replaced" Israel or were "included" in Israel. Either way, that is what made them "blind."

skypair

It is eisegesis at its worst to claim that the parables of Jesus Christ in Matthew 13 introduce dispensational "truth". The "truth" according to dispensationalism is that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, that he FAILED and established the Church as an afterthought, the Church which Scripture calls His Bride. Fortunately classic dispensationalism is dying out to be replaced by progressive dispensationalism which is very similar to covenant or historic premillennialism.

Dispensationalists should read the following passage if they do not understand why Jesus Christ came.

John 12:24-40

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Notice that in verse 27 Jesus Christ states that He came into the world to be crucified, not to establish a carnal kingdom. Also notice that in this passage Jesus Christ also quotes the prophecy of Isaiah that he used in Matthew 13.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Also notice in verse 40 who blinded the eyes of those looking for a carnal kingdom.

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Dispensationalists would also do well to read the following Scripture given through the Apostles Paul and John.

Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jesus Christ came to die for the elect, the Church consisting of those chosen unto salvation from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.