Amillennialism

[OldRegular]

Here is my evangelistic writing using my eschatology: pre-tribualtion rapture2, pre-millinnial Second Coming of Jesus, futuristic:

--------------------------
2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

It is also true that Matthew 27:52,53 states that:

Matthew 27:52,53, KJV
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

However, there is absolutely no indication in Scripture that these Saints possessed a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and that they ascended to heaven. We see from the following Scripture that Jesus Christ was the first resurrection and that there will be no further resurrection until He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23, KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

 

[skypair]

It is eisegesis at its worst to claim that the parables of Jesus Christ in Matthew 13 introduce dispensational "truth".

His kingdom had just been rejected in Mt 12. He told His disciples he now taught in parables because it was not given to the Pharisees -- the OT "standard-bearers" -- to understand.

So basically, if YOU are going to be a "standard-bearer" of Israel --- and you ARE if you believe you are "Israel" by extension or replacement, "Mr. Covenant Theologian" --- YOU are not going to understand these parables either!

Second, there are 2 types of seeds-fruits seen in Mt 13 -- wheat and mustard representing OT and NT -- and the wheat seeds themselves are seen at various stages of development thus further dividing the "wheat" aspects of the KoH.

It is "eisogesis at its worst" to claim there is no dispensational teaching in these parables and the ones that follow throughout the book of Matthew (which assertion you failed to rebut at all)!

The "truth" according to dispensationalism is that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, that he FAILED and established the Church as an afterthought, the Church which Scripture calls His Bride.

Could you possibly have put dispies in a less favorable light??

1) We ALL know that Christ came to OFFER His kingdom but was rejected -- hence, Palm Sunday!

2) The church WAS an interruption in God's program for Israel. His promises to them remain unfulfilled to this day!! Again, this is not a problem for those who mistakenly believe they "replace" or are "included" in Israel, is it? Why they might even be among the unraptured religious leaders who welcome Jesus at His second coming! I mean, there were things that He NEVER discovered from the Father -- like when He would return for us (cf. Mt 24:36).

3) Would it be so impossible for you to believe that Christ was a child once? that He didn't learn God's plan in an instant but discovered that He wouldn't be Messiah in Mt 12? That (answering your John 12:27 argument) God revealed what His new "mission" should be at that time?

Fortunately classic dispensationalism is dying out to be replaced by progressive dispensationalism which is very similar to covenant or historic premillennialism.

You mean it recognizes the distinctive administrations of God while denying the covenants that God made that are, to this day, either unfulfilled or were lies in the first place.

Also notice in verse 40 who blinded the eyes of those looking for a carnal kingdom.

Yeah, blinded the eyes of the then "covenant theologists," the Pharisees!! :laugh: Believe me, they heard Mt 13 and it meant neither more nor less to them than it does to YOU! Basically, they and you do not discern the message in the KoH parables!

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

This sounds like advice the YOU ought to be taking, my friend! raying:

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

3) Would it be so impossible for you to believe that Christ was a child once? that He didn't learn God's plan in an instant but discovered that He wouldn't be Messiah in Mt 12? That (answering your John 12:27 argument) God revealed what His new "mission" should be at that time?

skypair

I had intended not to further respond to dispensational error recognizing that it was useless. However, the above statement is so egregious an error that it borders on blasphemy. Your statement above, He didn't learn God's plan in an instant but discovered that He wouldn't be Messiah in Mt 12, brings into question the deity of the God-Man, Jesus Christ. Your statement creates a division in the Triune Godhead, an impossibility. Jesus was fully God and fully man from the moment of conception. Furthermore, he was the anointed one, the Messiah, the Christ, from the moment of conception.

The Gospel of Luke tells us regarding the incarnation:

Luke 1:30-35

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Please note that the angel Gabriel states: "he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Also please note that there is nothing in the statement by Gabriel indicating that Jesus Christ must be accepted by the Jews before He will rule over them!

The Apostle John tells us :

John 1:1-5

1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

John 4:25 "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."

Christ is the Greek word used for the Hebrew, Messiah.

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

In Matthew 16:16 we read: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Peter still believed that Jesus Was still Messiah,

The Apostle Paul states:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Again Jesus was fully God from the moment of conception. To claim otherwise is blasphemy.

 

[skypair]

I had intended not to further respond to dispensational error recognizing that it was useless.

Clearly, for the Truth, there is no rebuttal neither here nor in eternity.

However, the above statement is so egregious an error that it borders on blasphemy. Your statement above, He didn't learn God's plan in an instant but discovered that He wouldn't be Messiah in Mt 12, brings into question the deity of the God-Man, Jesus Christ. Your statement creates a division in the Triune Godhead, an impossibility. Jesus was fully God and fully man from the moment of conception. Furthermore, he was the anointed one, the Messiah, the Christ, from the moment of conception.

At what point do you assume they are not 3 Persons -- Father, Son, Spirit -- anymore? Did Jesus parents have to teach him to talk? Does God, the Father, know how to talk?

Now "imaging" the godly arrangement, are your soul, body, and spirit divisible? Is your spirit aware of everything affecting your body? In your spirit, do you know everything about the contents of your soul and how they got there?

I think you will see by this little demonstation that it is not blasphemous to believe what God has clearly shown us to be His present form (Trinity) which He has duplicated in us (triunity) so that He may deal with each aspect of us according to His "Persons." That is, the Father will save our souls, the Spirit will "save" our spirit, and, when He is ready, the Son will change our bodies to be like His glorious body!

Please note that the angel Gabriel states: "he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Also please note that there is nothing in the statement by Gabriel indicating that Jesus Christ must be accepted by the Jews before He will rule over them!

Notice a couple of things about your "proof." 1) The angel didn't say when He would begin reigning. 2) The house of Jacob was not all on the earth when Gabriel made his declaration. Most of the "house of Jacob" was in the GRAVE. But one day Christ will resurrect them to earth and begin this promised reign. 3) Prophecy deals with the issue of acceptance and ... Jesus prophesied that since they didn't receive Him at His first advent, they would receive another who would come in his own name -- hence, the tribulation when Israel will accept AC but then turn again to God and Messiah!

John 4:25 "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."

That is one person, a Samaritan at that. It was the religious leaders that had to accept Him.

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Believers and Christ are one. So are you Jesus? No. Are you Messiah? No. Please, don't make these silly assertions when you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Again Jesus was fully God from the moment of conception. To claim otherwise is blasphemy.

I admire your desire to come to the defense of scripture but to say the godhead is not a Trinity is also blasphemy.

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

I admire your desire to come to the defense of scripture but to say the godhead is not a Trinity is also blasphemy.

skypair

The above is a flat misrepresentation of what I said and that is as far as I can go on this forum. It is you who claim that there is division within the Godhead in your remark: "He didn't learn God's plan in an instant but discovered that He wouldn't be Messiah in Mt 12". That, as I said, is blasphemy.

The Old Testament teaches that there is one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

The New Testament teaches the same thing.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

You are apparently as ignorant of the doctrine of the Trinity as you are Scripture in general.

 

[skypair]

The above is a flat misrepresentation of what I said and that is as far as I can go on this forum. It is you who claim that there is division within the Godhead in your remark: "He didn't learn God's plan in an instant but discovered that He wouldn't be Messiah in Mt 12". That, as I said, is blasphemy.

And you, sir, purposely misunderstand what "Trinity" means. Trinity means that though there is One God, He exists in 3 Persons.

I am so sorry we can't talk reasonably together. After all I give you per my view, you apparently have no brotherly rejoinder but to lash out at me? :tear:

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

And you, sir, purposely misunderstand what "Trinity" means. Trinity means that though there is One God, He exists in 3 Persons.skypair

Trinity does not mean that there is division within the Godhead or that one person in the Trinity knows something the other does not. If you have concerns about Jesus [Christ] or Jesus Messiah you should read the account of Him discussing Scripture with the elders as a boy [Luke 2:41-53].:wavey:

 

[skypair]

Trinity does not mean that there is division within the Godhead or that one person in the Trinity knows something the other does not. If you have concerns about Jesus [Christ] or Jesus Messiah you should read the account of Him discussing Scripture with the elders as a boy [Luke 2:41-53].:wavey:

So why didn't He teach the elders as in infant? If He was omnipotent as an infant, why did His parents have to take Him to Egypt for His protection? Was scripture lying with it said He "humbled Himself" and became as man? If He was omniscient, how come He didn't know the "day and the hour" of His return? Your view is untenable, OR.

God is One in THREE Persons. To deny this, and you do, is blasphemy.

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

So why didn't He teach the elders as in infant? If He was omnipotent as an infant, why did His parents have to take Him to Egypt for His protection? Was scripture lying with it said He "humbled Himself" and became as man? If He was omniscient, how come He didn't know the "day and the hour" of His return? Your view is untenable, OR.

God is One in THREE Persons. To deny this, and you do, is blasphemy.

skypair

You are being disingenuous or worse when you say that I deny the doctrine of the Trinity. Furthermore you are ignorant of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as Scripture.

Philippians 2:5-11

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 2:9

9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 12:45

45. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Matthew 16:16, 17

16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1 Timothy 3:16, 4:1,2

16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

As for why the Christ child was taken to Egypt just believe Scripture.

Matthew 2:13-19

13. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15. And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
17. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18. In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

 

[skypair]

You are being disingenuous or worse when you say that I deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

OK, you don't "deny" the doctrine of the Trinity --- you just don't understand it. For example:

Philippians 2:5-11
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Though Jesus was God, He took the form of "servant," "in the likeness of men." Did God, the Father, ever become a sevant? a man? No. In John 1:18, JESUS said "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Colossians 2:9

9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Absolutely! The Father was revealed in Christ's soul -- the Holy Spirit was revealed in Christ's spirit -- God, the Son, was seen in Christ's body. He was the "fulness of the Godhead bodily" and not just God the Son. And yet He was still NOT the Father and He was still NOT the Spirit.

John 12:45

45. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Again, what I just said.

1 Timothy 3:16, 4:1,2

16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Obviously, it is a "mystery" that you have yet to master. You can talk about the trinity but you can't really explain it.

skypair

 

[OldRegular]

OK, you don't "deny" the doctrine of the Trinity --- you just don't understand it. For example:

Though Jesus was God, He took the form of "servant," "in the likeness of men." Did God, the Father, ever become a sevant? a man? No. In John 1:18, JESUS said "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Absolutely! The Father was revealed in Christ's soul -- the Holy Spirit was revealed in Christ's spirit -- God, the Son, was seen in Christ's body. He was the "fulness of the Godhead bodily" and not just God the Son. And yet He was still NOT the Father and He was still NOT the Spirit.

Again, what I just said.

Obviously, it is a "mystery" that you have yet to master. You can talk about the trinity but you can't really explain it.

skypair

You are either consciously or in ignorance implying that God the Son gave up some or all of His divinity in the incarnation. The only thing he left behind was His Glory since man cannot look upon the Glory of God and live. [Another reason the earthly millennial reign with mortals presence is nonsense, but that is another story!]

Exodus 33:18-23
18. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

John 17.4,5

4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[skypair]

John 17.4,5

5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.[/i]

Now there's an interesting "find" on your part. Did you not know that God wasn't always a trinity? And that He won't be in the eternal future?

But how does one sit "at the right hand of God the Father" if both are the same person?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Did you not know that God wasn't always a trinity? And that He won't be in the eternal future?

Sp,are you saying that you are not Trinitarian?Previously I thought your semi-Pelagianism was bad enough -- now this!

 

[Marcia]

Now there's an interesting "find" on your part. Did you not know that God wasn't always a trinity? And that He won't be in the eternal future?

What??? This is Oneness theology!

But how does one sit "at the right hand of God the Father" if both are the same person?

They are not the same person!!

Skypair, are you a Oneness believer?

 

[Marcia]

Now there's an interesting "find" on your part. Did you not know that God wasn't always a trinity? And that He won't be in the eternal future?

But how does one sit "at the right hand of God the Father" if both are the same person?

skypair

Skypair, please explain what you mean. You don't think the Trinity always existed?

By saying in the future it will not always exist, you sound like the Oneness people who say that there will only be God the Father (or some say only Jesus).

You are also saying that Jesus and God the Father are the same person. This is also a Oneness view.

 

[OldRegular]

Now there's an interesting "find" on your part. Did you not know that God wasn't always a trinity? And that He won't be in the eternal future?

But how does one sit "at the right hand of God the Father" if both are the same person?

skypair

The above post is nonsense. In the first paragraph you state that God was not always a Trinity and that in the eternal future [whatever that is?] He won't be again. If that is what you are contending then that is heresy.

In the second paragraph you seem to imply that God is more than one person which is true. Is that eternally or just temporary?

I said above that you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity and you have proven that to be true.

 

[skypair]

Skypair, please explain what you mean. You don't think the Trinity always existed?

By saying in the future it will not always exist, you sound like the Oneness people who say that there will only be God the Father (or some say only Jesus).

You are also saying that Jesus and God the Father are the same person. This is also a Oneness view.

Dear Marcia. Don't "go off the deep end" on me. :laugh: God in 3 persons is for this present cosmos (time and world). The Bible tells us that during this time, we are being saved progressively until our soul, spirit, and body are all one and glorified. But over time (cosmos) our soul has to be reconciled to the Father through repentance unto salvation, our spirit has to be sanctified progressively by the Spirit until it is perfected in heaven, and our bodies must be made incorruptible as the vessel for our perfected spirit and soul. IOW, even we ourselves are not that body that we shall be (1Cor 15:37). We believers, ourselves, are 3 different "persons" in that our souls are completely saved but our spirits and bodies are somewhere "enroute" to being one with our soul! But one day, our parts WILL be "sanctified wholy" 1Thes 5:23.

Just as our soul, spirit, and body are moving toward that day, so is God. Read 1Cor 15:27-28 " For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [God] is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." Isn't Christ already "subject" to God the Father? Not in the sense that He would be if He was in the same body. Right now He is a separate Person with His own soul that is totally separated from God at the cross and totally reconciled to God following the cross. However, they are not One entity. They are still Father and Son.

Now look at Rev 22:4 -- "and they shall see His [God's] face." God is a spirit, friend. If we say we saw Him in Rev 4 or Ezek 1, we have to say we were given the ability to see a spirit or representation thereof. But in the New Earth, we will see God inhabiting Christ in a physical one body and vice versa -- God will be "all in all," not Christ "all in all" (Col 3:11).

And then of course, you have John 1 -- "In the beginning was the word and the word [Christ] was with God [in trinity] and the word [Christ] was God [unity]. And the word was in the beginning WITH God." This establishes, does it not, that somewhere around "the beginning," creation," Christ was with (in trinity) God but not one in God ("all in all"). This corresponds to God creating "time" out of "eternity past" and "eternity future." He created Christ to inhabit time (temporal) whereas God Himself inhabits eternity even now ("supratemporal" is what they call that).

I believe this understanding is critical to correct theology. God wants to have sons and daughters who replicate His "image" as 3 now but as one in time eternal. Not like Lucifer and the angels. And not like Adam who was really only "blindly obedient" but couldn't appreciate all that God had done as Father -- couldn't, I'd guess, love God as those who have been rescued from the fate of Satan and other men.

Does that satisfy your desire to lambast me? :laugh: Or do I need to dig myself a deeper hole?! :laugh:

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Dear Marcia. Don't "go off the deep end" on me.

It's not just Marcia;OldRegular and myself have asked you about your non-orthodox stance.

Just as our soul, spirit, and body are moving toward that day, so is God.

Are you saying God is in process?!

However, they are not One entity. They are still Father and Son.

The Father and Son are not of the same entity?!That's heretical for sure.

And then of course, you have John 1 -- "In the beginning was the word and the word [Christ] was with God [in trinity] and the word [Christ] was God [unity]. And the word was in the beginning WITH God." This establishes, does it not, that somewhere around "the beginning," creation," Christ was with (in trinity) God but not one in God ("all in all"). This corresponds to God creating "time" out of "eternity past" and "eternity future." He created Christ to inhabit time (temporal) whereas God Himself inhabits eternity even now ("supratemporal" is what they call that).

As much as I diasagree with what Dr.Rogers taught he would be dead-set against this heresy of yours.Among the wrong things you said in this paragraph of yours ( and I don't have the time or energy to comment on the other error-filled thoughts you expressed)-- Christ was never "created"!Where do you come up with such doctrinally deviant notions?I don't want any lurkers getting the impression that you speak as a representative Christian saying these wacky things.

I believe this understanding is critical to correct theology.

Unbelievable!

 

[J.D.]

I'm beginning to wonder if Skypair should be posting in a "Baptist" forum. He might need to start posting in the "other denominations" forum as a unitarian or a JW or a Oneness or modalist or whatever.

 

[skypair]

Are you saying God is in process?!

I'm saying that salvation is a "process" in which God and Christ use time to reach Their intended purposes in us.

The Father and Son are not of the same entity?!That's heretical for sure.

I guess I should have said "in one Person," not 3 Persons anymore.

Christ was never "created"!

How exactly would you describe the division of God from 1 Person into 3? I've used the word "subsumed" before to describe Their coming together again into one Person in the New Earth.

And need I remind you and J.D. that in the OT, there was known to be only ONE Person in the Godhead? That the OT tradition was where the notion of "montheism" originated? The "angel of the Lord," preincarnate Christ, was not God. He was a Messenger from God.

Before you start "spitting" all over your keyboards, how about thinking about how you are going to respond. These wild and false accusations can't be very impressive to lurkers and to those who know their God.

skypair