Amillennialism

[DHK]

And need I remind you and J.D. that in the OT, there was known to be only ONE Person in the Godhead? That the OT tradition was where the notion of "montheism" originated? The "angel of the Lord," preincarnate Christ, was not God. He was a Messenger from God.

skypair

The "angel" that Jacob wrestled with, who was he?
The "Captain" of the Lord's hosts, that confronted Joshua, who was he?
The fourth person in the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrew children, who was He?
The third person whom Abraham stood before, while the two others went on their way toward Sodom and Gomorrah, who was he?

Hindsight is better than foresight; it is true.
However, these questions have only one correct answer.
Whether or not the Jews would come to that correct answer 100% of the time is irrelevant.
Either Christ is preincarnate or he is an angel, a messenger, as the J.W.'s beleive. He cannot be both. He is one or the other. He is deity or an angel, which one?

 

[skypair]

Whether or not the Jews would come to that correct answer 100% of the time is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to you and your 20/20 hindsight but not the the OT Jews it wasn't.

Either Christ is preincarnate or he is an angel, a messenger, as the J.W.'s beleive. He cannot be both.

Don't be ridiculous! The Jw's ought to know better but that still doesn't make angel into the preincarnate Christ to OT Israel! Shame on you!

skypair

 

[DHK]

Don't be ridiculous! The Jw's ought to know better but that still doesn't make angel into the preincarnate Christ to OT Israel! Shame on you!

skypair

Shame on me??
I am not the one denying the deity of Christ, and putting Christ in the same class as those who were and are created beings

 

[Amy.G]

This settles it for me:


Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Marcia]

I'm saying that salvation is a "process" in which God and Christ use time to reach Their intended purposes in us.

I guess I should have said "in one Person," not 3 Persons anymore.

You are not answering the question I posed satisfactorily because the explanations are as unsatisfactory as what was said before.

What does "one Person" and "not 3 Persons anymore" mean? Is the Trinity eternal or not?

How exactly would you describe the division of God from 1 Person into 3? I've used the word "subsumed" before to describe Their coming together again into one Person in the New Earth.

God is not divided! There is one God consisting of 3 co-eternal Persons who have always existed and always will.

And need I remind you and J.D. that in the OT, there was known to be only ONE Person in the Godhead? That the OT tradition was where the notion of "montheism" originated? The "angel of the Lord," preincarnate Christ, was not God. He was a Messenger from God.

You can show the Trinity from the OT. This view here is heretical.

You are saying the preincarnate Christ was not God?????

He was/is not God the Father but he was still God the Son though he had not incarnated.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God is three persons which are distinct but they are all homoosious or have a Hypostatic union. Therefore it is true to say

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad

and it is also true to say

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem Et in Jesum Christum, Filium ejus unicum Credo in Spiritum Sanctum

 

[Amy.G]

God is three persons which are distinct but they are all homoosious or have a Hypostatic union. Therefore it is true to say

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad

and it is also true to say

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem Et in Jesum Christum, Filium ejus unicum Credo in Spiritum Sanctum

Thanks. That was quite......edifying.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thanks. That was quite......edifying.

Anytime I can help out Amy. I hope that clears up many issues.

 

[Amy.G]

Anytime I can help out Amy. I hope that clears up many issues.

Clear as mud. :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Clear as mud. :laugh:

Basically trinitarian doctrine. Moses taught Isreal to pray the sh'ma or hear. Ie Hear O isreal the Lord our God is one.

Then Christianity comes into the picture and we have the creed I believe in God the Father and in Jesus Christ his only son and the Holy Spirit. So we have three distinct persons that are all of the Same substance or the same thing in which they are unified. One God. Now the debate is how does that work? Does Jesus and the Spirit flow out from God or does Jesus flow out from God and the Spirit Flow out from Jesus.

 

[skypair]

What does "one Person" and "not 3 Persons anymore" mean? Is the Trinity eternal or not?

God, my POV, existed as One God and Person in eternity past. That is, there was not one "Person" of God that was higher or differentiated within the godhead. Then God created angels who have an eternal life also. Rebellion ensued and God had to find a place not in His eternal kingdom for the fallen angels. This is the point at which I believe God created time and the universe. I that same beginning of time, He made of Himself 3 Persons -- 1 supratemporal in eternity, one temporal to redeem the physical creation He would make, and one atemporal that would glorify both the eternal and the temporal Persons of God.

His purpose is to redeem all that He can of this physical creation to Himself while dealing with the fallen angels. He does this by creating a kingdom for His Son called the "kingdom of heaven" (it's really of the earth and the heavens). That it is physical is the distinguishing feature of that temporal kingdom. Are you following this so far?

1Cor 15:28 tells us that at the conclusion of the MK, Christ will deliver up His kingdom to the Father who will fold it back into His own. In that kingdom, Christ will become God, in fact, as He once was. No more "Father-Son-Holy Ghost." And we ourselves will be "perfected" --- saved in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost -- God "all in all."

Where are the fallen angels and the lost? No doubt another "sun" in the perfect universe -- and spiritually captive there not intruding into the phyical realm anymore! :godisgood:

Please don't "flame" me anymore for trying to be a good student of the Bible. raying: You are talking about a "snapshot" in time and I am talking about the entire "motion picture!" I know you can make a powerful "promo poster" for the "movie" but that's noting compared to the full-length film!

You can show the Trinity from the OT. This view here is heretical.

In mystery, yes. I have done so many times. Prov 8 is my favorite concerning the Holy Spirit.

You are saying the preincarnate Christ was not God?????

No. Was he recognized as God? No, again.

He was/is not God the Father but he was still God the Son though he had not incarnated.

Do you even know what "mysteries" are?

skypair

 

[Thinkingstuff]

POV? Personally Operated Vehicle? That existed in the Eternity past? I'm confused.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Note to all, esp sky - Teaching against the Trinity will find you looking in at the BB from the "Other Religions" side, if allowed here at all. The doctrinal statement of the BB is orthodox - trinitarian, not oneness.

Warning to everyone. And this thread has drifted far from his shaky start, so will clip it soon and allow others to start individual threads (if desired) tomorrow.

 

[Ed Edwards]

POV? Personally Operated Vehicle? That existed in the Eternity past? I'm confused.

POV = Point of View

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Note to all, esp sky - Teaching against the Trinity will find you looking in at the BB from the "Other Religions" side, if allowed here at all. The doctrinal statement of the BB is orthodox - trinitarian, not oneness.

Warning to everyone. And this thread has drifted far from his shaky start, so will clip it soon and allow others to start individual threads (if desired) tomorrow.

I wasn't "teaching against the trinity" I supported it and continue to do so.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

POV = Point of View

oh thanks.

 

[OldRegular]

God, my POV, existed as One God and Person in eternity past. That is, there was not one "Person" of God that was higher or differentiated within the godhead. Then God created angels who have an eternal life also. Rebellion ensued and God had to find a place not in His eternal kingdom for the fallen angels. This is the point at which I believe God created time and the universe. I that same beginning of time, He made of Himself 3 Persons -- 1 supratemporal in eternity, one temporal to redeem the physical creation He would make, and one atemporal that would glorify both the eternal and the temporal Persons of God.

His purpose is to redeem all that He can of this physical creation to Himself while dealing with the fallen angels. He does this by creating a kingdom for His Son called the "kingdom of heaven" (it's really of the earth and the heavens). That it is physical is the distinguishing feature of that temporal kingdom. Are you following this so far?

1Cor 15:28 tells us that at the conclusion of the MK, Christ will deliver up His kingdom to the Father who will fold it back into His own. In that kingdom, Christ will become God, in fact, as He once was. No more "Father-Son-Holy Ghost." And we ourselves will be "perfected" --- saved in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost -- God "all in all."

Where are the fallen angels and the lost? No doubt another "sun" in the perfect universe -- and spiritually captive there not intruding into the phyical realm anymore! :godisgood:

Please don't "flame" me anymore for trying to be a good student of the Bible. raying: You are talking about a "snapshot" in time and I am talking about the entire "motion picture!" I know you can make a powerful "promo poster" for the "movie" but that's noting compared to the full-length film!

In mystery, yes. I have done so many times. Prov 8 is my favorite concerning the Holy Spirit.

No. Was he recognized as God? No, again.

Do you even know what "mysteries" are?

skypair

skypair

I told you you did not understand Scripture or the doctrine of the Trinity. The above post proves it. You have made a changeling out of God! Below are some Scripture that might be helpful if you would study them.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

Guess I will stop here. The above is enough to keep you occupied and hopefully out of trouble.

 

[skypair]

Note to all, esp sky - Teaching against the Trinity will find you looking in at the BB from the "Other Religions" side, if allowed here at all. The doctrinal statement of the BB is orthodox - trinitarian, not oneness.

Warning to everyone. And this thread has drifted far from his shaky start, so will clip it soon and allow others to start individual threads (if desired) tomorrow.

Bob -- you KNOW I am trinitarian. I even so much as push the notion that we need to be saved by each Person of the trinity until we are glorified/perfected, the idea being that we must be saved soul, spirit, and body.

But the topic regards "end things" -- things outside our present dispensation and outside even the next one, Christ's kingdom.

Plus --- to be trinitarian in the OT would have been unorthodox, heretical! "Believing in three Gods," they would have called it!! "Claiming to be equal with God" they DID call it when Jesus walked the earth!

skypair

 

[Marcia]

Bob -- you KNOW I am trinitarian. I even so much as push the notion that we need to be saved by each Person of the trinity until we are glorified/perfected, the idea being that we must be saved soul, spirit, and body.

But the topic regards "end things" -- things outside our present dispensation and outside even the next one, Christ's kingdom.

Plus --- to be trinitarian in the OT would have been unorthodox, heretical! "Believing in three Gods," they would have called it!! "Claiming to be equal with God" they DID call it when Jesus walked the earth!

skypair

You also said in a previous post above:

This is the point at which I believe God created time and the universe. I that same beginning of time, He made of Himself 3 Persons -- 1 supratemporal in eternity, one temporal to redeem the physical creation He would make, and one atemporal that would glorify both the eternal and the temporal Persons of God.

....No more "Father-Son-Holy Ghost."

None of these statements are Trinitarian views. These are heretical statements.

 

[MB]

God, my POV, existed as One God and Person in eternity past. That is, there was not one "Person" of God that was higher or differentiated within the godhead. Then God created angels who have an eternal life also. Rebellion ensued and God had to find a place not in His eternal kingdom for the fallen angels. This is the point at which I believe God created time and the universe. I that same beginning of time, He made of Himself 3 Persons -- 1 supratemporal in eternity, one temporal to redeem the physical creation He would make, and one atemporal that would glorify both the eternal and the temporal Persons of God

Your POV is that God does change then.

His purpose is to redeem all that He can of this physical creation to Himself while dealing with the fallen angels. He does this by creating a kingdom for His Son called the "kingdom of heaven" (it's really of the earth and the heavens). That it is physical is the distinguishing feature of that temporal kingdom. Are you following this so far?

That's strange I distinctly remember that Christ said He left to go prepare a place for us that where He is we may be also.

1Cor 15:28 tells us that at the conclusion of the MK, Christ will deliver up His kingdom to the Father who will fold it back into His own. In that kingdom, Christ will become God, in fact, as He once was. No more "Father-Son-Holy Ghost." And we ourselves will be "perfected" --- saved in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost -- God "all in all."

I Cor 15:28. does not say all that. About 90% you added your self. The Bible says;
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Where are the fallen angels and the lost? No doubt another "sun" in the perfect universe -- and spiritually captive there not intruding into the phyical realm anymore! :godisgood:

Please don't "flame" me anymore for trying to be a good student of the Bible. raying: You are talking about a "snapshot" in time and I am talking about the entire "motion picture!" I know you can make a powerful "promo poster" for the "movie" but that's noting compared to the full-length film!

Ground control to Captain Tom;;;;; You need to come back to earth and suffer the stark reality of life:laugh:

In mystery, yes. I have done so many times. Prov 8 is my favorite concerning the Holy Spirit.

No. Was he recognized as God? No, again.

He explained Him Self as God in this statement;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
God is one God not temporarily three.

Do you even know what "mysteries" are?

skypair

The mystery is that he is all in one single God Jesus Is not separate neither is the Spirit. And God never changes. He has always been a trinity, and always will be.
MB