I think, just at a glance, that what you are tying to make "figurative" no one would disagree with.
I wish you would have acknowledged that a few days ago, Would have saved us a both a lot of time. So you take figurative language of the OT and force it into literal in the NT.
It must, of necessity, be a revived Roman empire, since it clearly didn't happen the first time.
Doesn’t say revived though does it? Seems God could have said so if He wanted since He named the other Kingdoms. Your pre-supposition forces you to believe it didn’t happen. Is this your method of Bible interpretation,… if it didn’t happen the way I think it should then it just didn’t happen?
Seriously, Revelation uses the same language as Dan to talk of a coming time. I don't have the exact refernces in front of me.
Yes, so the Beast John sees is the same Beast Daniel saw.
So 2 Peter 3 and Rev 20 don't teach the end of this planet as we know it???
No, past theologians understood the metaphoric language that has been lost among dispies:
John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly."Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.
C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).
What does it do to your view if this Hebrew idiom is indeed what Spurgeon and Owen say it is?
How do we know the meaning of the passages if the words don't give it to us?
You mean like “earth” in Ecc 1:4? You mean like “some of you will not taste of death till you see the son of man coming on the clouds? Are these examples of what you are referring too?
Ecc 1:4 is not talking about eschatology. It is talking about life.
Ecc 1:4One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Ps 148: 4Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. 6He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
Gen 8: 21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
So why did the prophets more than 1000 years later repeat the land promise?
You used Gen 15 as your proof text, if you wish to use another provide it, but don’t pull the bait and switch on me.
Isa 65 and 66 talk of the coming kingdom which gives way to eternity. In prophecy, they are not always clearly separable.
The New Heavens and New Earth of Is. 65 and 66 are quite clear. They are not speaking of eternity.
quote:
I can only assume after 3 times you are intentionally dodging verse 27 which speaks of coming with angels and rewarding according to works. You say there is no gap between 27 and 28, you say they saw 28 but not 27.
I will give up on you answering this.
No need to give up. I already answered it. Deal with it.
You say they saw verse 28 fulfilled, though you use words not in the passage:
They saw his coming in the glory of his kingdom and loved it so muhc they wanted to stay.
You also said there is no gap between 27 & 28:
No, you are wrong. It didn't happen yet. That doesn't mean it won't happen. It will. And there doesn't need to be a gap.
Yet you say verse 27 didn’t happen:
The truth is that that same issue is a problem for you as well. It just didn't happen .
How can verse 28 have happened if it is connected to verse 27 which you say didn’t happen? Jesus told them they would see these events before they died, you say they didn’t. It is quite clear you have no answer that I can deal with.
But you don't understand how they used it. You have them making a liar out of God. I disagree with that tactic.
It is you who makes Jesus the liar and God impotent to do His will in establishing His Kingdom. See I can use extreme statements also.
This is but another problem with your view.
The problem lies with your view, you have a group of people who no longer exist seeing something in the future.
Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).
Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
You want one group of people to pierce him and another group to view him.
No, the same group that pierced His saw His coming.
Matt 23:29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Jesus put the blame and the judgement on those Jews, not some other group of people.
When does Matt 23 get fulfilled in your view?
He did. He told them that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to the people manifesting teh fruits of it.
Are you saying this didn't happen?
If Jesus came to establish a physical Kingdom and if the Jews wanted to make Him King, then why didn't He establish the kingdom?
John 6:15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force,
to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
There was Jesus' chance to establish the physical Kingdom and He said: No Thanks! Why did He refuse it if this is what He came to do? It wasn't until He rejected their physical Kingdom that they rejected Him.
Jesus wasn't going to let rejection stop Him from establishing the Kingdom:
Luke 10:10But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you:
notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Jesus tell the disciples they will reject Him but it doesn't matter, the Kingdom is still near.
Ps. 2 makes it clear that no-one will thwart the will of God and His establishment of His Kingdom:
Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh : the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
God will laugh at their rejection, not postpone His will.