Amy Grant and Christian Divorce

[Ben W]

I have hear that some time ago Amy Grant and her husband decided to get a divorce after years of counselling over various issues. Amy Grant is supposed to have said something along the lines of by staying together they are both unhappy which doesent show alot of Love in this situation. A mutual agreement was reached and I think she has remarried another chap in the music industy.

From the first church I went to I have heard that some of the coupled there have seperated and some have divorced and remarried. I feel that this situation is likely to be repeated in a number of churches across the world. How can two Born again christians like Amy and her husband ever let it come to this? but it does seem to happen.

How do we as the church really deal with this situation?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ben W:
I have hear that some time ago Amy Grant and her husband decided to get a divorce after years of counselling over various issues. Amy Grant is supposed to have said something along the lines of by staying together they are both unhappy which doesent show alot of Love in this situation. A mutual agreement was reached and I think she has remarried another chap in the music industy.

That's not exactly true.

I think Gary was the victim here. He's the one who initiated counseling. He only consented to the divorce because, legally, he had no choice.

Remember that Janice Gill left her husband first because he was fooling around with Amy Grant.

It was Amy who left him for another man and Amy who went in a nationally syndicated magazine and ridiculed him for trying to keep the marriage together.

I think it's clear from both of their accounts that he did everything humanly possible to keep the marriage together and I think it's equally clear from her own words that she didn't really value the marriage that much to begin with.

I don't think it's as clear as saying "here are two people who gave up on a marriage when it got to be inconvenient", this is clearly a matter of a woman who abandoned her family.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ben W:
I have hear that some time ago Amy Grant and her husband decided to get a divorce after years of counselling over various issues. Amy Grant is supposed to have said something along the lines of by staying together they are both unhappy which doesent show alot of Love in this situation. A mutual agreement was reached and I think she has remarried another chap in the music industy.

That's not exactly true.

I think Gary was the victim here.</font>[/QUOTE]I am extremely uncomfortable talking about this issue (and especially assessing blame) because we do not know the inner workings of their marriage. To paraphrase an old Don Henley song... There's three sides to every story... there's her's, there's him, and then the cold, hard truth.

They've been very open about how difficult their marriage has been throughout the years. Gary Chapman had a bad drug problem through most of the 1980s and caused the family no end of grief. There's also the tension of being in the spotlight -- judged as being some sort of "Christian superstar" (an impossible task) and pressures from the mainstream music industry.

He's the one who initiated counseling.

That's the story being given about this most recent situation that led to the divorce. Amy demanded counseling many years ago for other marital problems. I think it's fair to say that they both have sought counseling over the years.

Remember that Janice Gill left her husband first because he was fooling around with Amy Grant.

Just because she stated this when she was seeking a settlement of the estate doesn't mean it is true. Furthermore, what does "fooling around" mean? If you are accusing her of adultery, I think you need to give me a quote from her confessing to it or refrain from making public accusations.

It was Amy who left him for another man and Amy who went in a nationally syndicated magazine and ridiculed him for trying to keep the marriage together.

Did she leave him for another man? How do you know? Which nationally syndicated magazine was this? Let's put facts on the table here instead of these statements that cannot be verified.

I think it's clear from both of their accounts that he did everything humanly possible to keep the marriage together and I think it's equally clear from her own words that she didn't really value the marriage that much to begin with.

Too bad they didn't have you there to sort everything out for them. I doubt the truth is anywhere close to as black and white as that...

I don't think it's as clear as saying "here are two people who gave up on a marriage when it got to be inconvenient", this is clearly a matter of a woman who abandoned her family.

I don't think we have enough information to judge their situation. Furthermore, I don't think it is really the business of the Christian community to do a postmortem of their failed marriage. Let's face it... They are singer/songwriters, not pastors or Christian leaders. If you like their music, listen to it. If you don't like their music, don't listen to it. If you're going to start selecting your music according to whether or not the lyric writer may have committed adultery, you need to tear the psalms of David out of your Bible.

DISCLOSURE:

* I like a few Amy Grant tunes songs.
* I like a few Gary Chapman songs.
* I haven't bought an album of theirs in years. (I think the most recent one was "Home for Christmas" about ten years ago.)

 

[hrhema]

When you have a woman who stood for truth and sang only gospel music one time in her life turn and start singing secular and worldly music what do you expect. Her popularity became more important than her Saviour. Filthy lucre and the lure of riches turned her head too much. She could not make the money singing gospel music
so she started going the other direction.

As far as her marriage went to her first husband it is easy to judge because of her notriety but
she claimed her husband had cheated on her also which is no excuse to do what she did but there is really no excuse for either party to be unfaithful. The same thing goes for Vince Gill. His wife he said had been unfaithful to him. So in reality who is guilty? Both of them. Both couples cheated obviously. Both of them sinned.
Neither couple had a right to divorce and remarry since they both committed adultery.

Yes Amy Grant's first husband wanted counseling but if you talk to a lot of pastors you will find out that people who are cheated on are the hardest to deal with&gt; Many get bitter and want revenge so they cheat also. There is no justification for the actions of either party but there are people who never forgive a partner for them first cheating on them.

Things like this happen when there is no accountability for these performers who are on the road too much and don't take their spouses with them.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Hi baptist Believer.

You raise some good points, but let me add one thing.

The Psalms are full of David's repentance, and sorrow for his sins. We have yet to see Amy Grant & company say anything close to repentance, or sorrow. Only name-calling and a non-chalant attitude.

Hope all is well with you.

 

[Helen]

Let's look at a few Bible passages here, because I want to make sure the point I am going to make is clear:

Matt. 19:8 -- "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because our hearts were hard."

Ephesians 4:17-19 -- "So I tel you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality, so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."

Speaking of Israel, God says through Ezekiel in Ez. 11:19-20, "I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people and I will be their God."

In Romans, Paul says of the Jew, "...a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."

Earlier, in Romans 1:21, Paul is saying of the people who deliberately suppress the truth they are confronted with, "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." And then, again, in verse 28, "Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done."

Amy Grant knew who God was. I have several tapes of her first recordings and, in fact, this morning have been humming her song, "What A Difference" [You've Made in My Life]. So many of her first songs clearly showed the lady knew WHO God was.

But this is not the same as knowing God. God circumcises the heart, as Paul mentioned regarding the Jews. God strips off the hardness we ourselves have produced.

Which is my way of saying that a "Christian divorce" is an impossibility. There is no such thing. The very first fruit of the Spirit is love -- not just an emotion, but the ability to care for another and commit to another above and beyond the point of discomfort for self. It involves concentration on the beloved, not on self.

The FIRST fruit of the Spirit!

Can that born again heart then harden again? No, because that person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and God IS faithful to complete the good work He began.

Now, that being said, I am a divorced woman. My husband of 20 years had made a profession of faith, been baptised, was head usher in a fairly large church (for this area, anyway!).

At the same time, he had been carrying on with other women most of the time we were married.

He left in 1991 with another woman. Her husband had been an elder in another church and had left her. My ex filed for divorce and effectively abandon me and our six children -- he did not pay any attention to most of them after the first year he had gone. The attention he paid to the two he did notice was cursory and painful for them both. His heart was totally hardened toward them -- which is incredible because five of our children are adopted special case kids.

Was/is this man a Christian? His heart is hard. But he got baptised AGAIN after he left us. Declared that he had not really been a Christian before but now he really was.

No change in his caring for his children, however. That was not there. Nor would he send child support until ordered by a judge.

So was ours a Christian divorce? No. It was as pagan as they come, except that I, as a Christian, was caught in it. But we are told to allow the unbeliever to leave. I have to admit, though, it wasn't until the past few years that I was finally, totally, able to release him way deep in my heart! One does not commit and then let go lightly!

But TWO Christians in a marriage? They have hearts softened by the Lord, capable of loving and being loved. Their hearts desire the Lord first and He Himself gives them a love and understanding of one another that transcends whether or not the cap is on the toothpaste tube or the car ran out of gas or the woman in the restaurant is pretty and flirts. God causes deep, deep caring past the daily irritations, money problems, kid problems, in-law problems, boss problems, -- you name it.

I did not realize the difference until I was married two years ago to a man who loves God first and centers his life around that love. What a difference in a marriage! We're not perfect and I get grouchy, but this is a marriage with God in it and, as such, the very concept of divorce is utterly foreign to it.

So here is my point, again: there is no such thing as a Christian divorce. Those who attend church who do get divorced are declaring that at least one of them is not a Christ follower.

A Christian married to a non-believer (regardless of profession of faith) often gets caught in a divorce. Two non-believers can divorce. But two believers? Impossible. God has changed their hearts and their marriage is a reflection of that.

 

[Johnv]

Doesn't matter how bad your marriage is. There's no excuse for infidelity.

Think about it. How stupid would it sound if you replaced "affair" with "physical abuse"?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am extremely uncomfortable talking about this issue (and especially assessing blame) because we do not know the inner workings of their marriage.

No, but we do know what she has chosen to make public. That's what I'm commenting on, not what went on behind closed doors.

He's the one who initiated counseling.

That's the story being given about this most recent situation that led to the divorce. Amy demanded counseling many years ago for other marital problems. I think it's fair to say that they both have sought counseling over the years.[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]True enough, but I'm talking specifically abotu the marriage counseling that Gary initiated and their pastor encouraged.

Just because she stated this when she was seeking a settlement of the estate doesn't mean it is true.

Like you said, we're not privvy to what's going on in Vince and Janice Gill's marriage. She certainly believed they were fooling around and I'm assuming that she knows more about the situation than you or I do.

I don't know whether he did or he didn't and I'm not claiming to. All I'm saying is that his relationship with Amy Grant is what broke up his marriage.

If you are accusing her of adultery, I think you need to give me a quote from her confessing to it or refrain from making public accusations.

When did I accuse her of adultery?

Did she leave him for another man? How do you know?

From all of the interviews she's given in which she said so.

Which nationally syndicated magazine was this?

CCM.

Let's put facts on the table here instead of these statements that cannot be verified.

I'm assuming that what she is saying is factual.

Too bad they didn't have you there to sort everything out for them.

Too bad they didn't have you to there to make snide comments.

Furthermore, I don't think it is really the business of the Christian community to do a postmortem of their failed marriage.

Then she needs to quit going all over the place and making it public.

Why can't she show some class like Gary Chapman has done and keep her mouth shut?

Let's face it... They are singer/songwriters, not pastors or Christian leaders. If you like their music, listen to it. If you don't like their music, don't listen to it. If you're going to start selecting your music according to whether or not the lyric writer may have committed adultery, you need to tear the psalms of David out of your Bible.

Actually, if you had read the thread in the Music Ministry forums, instead of looking for a reason to jump all over me, you'd know that I made those exact same points.

[ December 03, 2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
The Psalms are full of David's repentance, and sorrow for his sins. We have yet to see Amy Grant & company say anything close to repentance, or sorrow. Only name-calling and a non-chalant attitude.

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with Curtis.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by hrhema:
When you have a woman who stood for truth and sang only gospel music one time in her life turn and start singing secular and worldly music what do you expect.

I would expect her to stand for truth in the real world, outside the artificial ghetto of “Christian” music. As far as I can tell, she did that pretty well. (I think that she “sang only gospel music at one time in her life” because she was on a “Christian” label. Her music was always broader than just the basics of the gospel and covered her Christian view of life events. I think she did essentially the same thing when her music was released through mainstream channels.

Her popularity became more important than her Saviour. Filthy lucre and the lure of riches turned her head too much.

That’s quite an assertion. Do you have any evidence to back it up?

She could not make the money singing gospel music so she started going the other direction.

You can make a bundle in “Christian” music. You have a built-in market for your product and the fans are usually much more loyal than in the mainstream. But beyond the economic aspect of it, how do you know she did it because of greed?

Neither couple had a right to divorce and remarry since they both committed adultery.

Where are you getting your information regarding adultery in this situation? Can you give the names and dates of reliable printed sources?

[Thinking out loud] Where does grace figure into all this? [/Thinking out loud]

Things like this happen when there is no accountability for these performers who are on the road too much and don't take their spouses with them.

Very true. Temptation can become hard to endure when you are lonely. But, correct me if I’m wrong here, Chapman and Grant usually toured together. At least in the 80s, he was a member of her band.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:

[Thinking out loud] Where does grace figure into all this? [/Thinking out loud]

I'm all for showing grace to people in this situation, but to excuse unrepentant sin isn't grace, it's enabling.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
You raise some good points, but let me add one thing.

The Psalms are full of David's repentance, and sorrow for his sins. We have yet to see Amy Grant & company say anything close to repentance, or sorrow. Only name-calling and a non-chalant attitude.

Very true about David. As far as the attitude of Chapman and Grant, I don't know. From what I've read about it, I get the impression that they just don't like something this difficult and personal put under the microscope of public opinion and gossip.

Even in divorce, often the couple will keep secrets about the former spouse from others out of respect. Not all dirty linen is aired or energy expended to defend oneself. Most people would rather believe scandals than the truth, so why bother arguing if someone else's mind in made up -- it only makes you look more guilty in the eyes of the judgemental.

Hope all is well with you.

And you.

I haven't tracked down those bluegrass albums yet, but Christmas is coming at they are on the list.

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't divorcing, except for certain allowable reasons(those in the Bible), and then remarrying adultery? That's what I remember reading in the Bible...

As for Amy Grant, she's still in the limelight, however, you will not find many Christian artists that will tour with her...I.e. Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant used to do an annual Christmas show, Michael W. Smith has not toured with her since the divorce.

[edited to post applicable verse}

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.--Matthew 5:32

Gary Chapman, isn't in the limelight, he has chosen to not be in this specific ministry(which it is if you think about it....when that many people are looking to you for an example of how to live your life), and when's the last time you've heard him put out an album? NOw, when's the last time you heard Grant put out an album?

[ December 03, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: baptistforever ]

 

[hrhema]

Baptist Believer: First of all I have a problem with you defending anyone who starts singing gospel music then turns to singing worldly music. Second of all it is very rare for gospel singers to make millions as you claim. You have them mixed up with tele-evangelists. Before you make statements you need to read some of the biography's of gospel singers and really find out what kind of lifestyles they lived or do live.
Most give thousands and thousands of dollars to churches and ministries and missionaries.

There were articles in many newspapers when Vince Gill and his wife separated and when Amy Grant and her husband separated that told of confessions that were made. Just like Michael English made a public confession after he committed adultery with another singer.
None of these articles were headliners but stuck in the back of local newpapers and there was remorse on Amy's and Vince's part or they could not perform in the Bible Belt and have attendance.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by baptistforever:
As for Amy Grant, she's still in the limelight, however, you will not find many Christian artists that will tour with her...I.e. Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant used to do an annual Christmas show, Michael W. Smith has not toured with her since the divorce.

I could be wrong, but I think Michael W. Smith and Point of Grace have toured with her on her annual Christmas tour since the divorce.

[qb]

and when's the last time you've heard him put out an album?

"Circles and Seasons", released 2/4/02.

Now, when's the last time you heard Grant put out an album?

"Legacy, Hymns and Faith", released 5/21/02

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Thank you Mike....I was seriously not aware of these happenings....

I know that around these parts, I haven't heard of either Michael W. Smith touring with her (except one year),nor have I heard of Point of Grace touring with her...

I humbly declare those two statements officially invalid..however, the top statement remains!

Thank you!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Baptist Believer: First of all I have a problem with you defending anyone who starts singing gospel music then turns to singing worldly music.

1. define "worldly music"

2. Why?

Second of all it is very rare for gospel singers to make millions as you claim.

No it's not.

Wayne Watson, Mylon Lefevre, Dana Key, Eddie Degarmo, Sandi Patti, Michael W. Smith, Steven Curtis Chapman, Bob Carlisle, Randy Thomas...

Most give thousands and thousands of dollars to churches and ministries and missionaries.

They may or may not do that, but they have to earn that money before they can give it away.

and there was remorse on Amy's and Vince's part or they could not perform in the Bible Belt and have attendance.

I don't see how you can look at the recent interview on PrimetimeLive and say that there's any sort of remorse.

As for not being able to play in the Bible Belt, Randy Stonehill and Sandi Patti are both gospel artists who are popular in the Bible Belt and there are many mainstream artists who are divorced, such as Ricky Skaggs, and others who are popular in the Bible Belt.

I don't think anyone could deny some of the fooling around that's gone on between artists in country music, yet country music is huge in the Bible Belt.

 

[Speedpass]

What I heard is that Amy and Gary divorced because she wanted to have another baby, and he did not.

 

[hrhema]

What I define as worldly music is if the music promotes a sinful lifestyle or if the beat promotes dancing.

I did not see the special with Amy Grant but I do know that she did tell certain reporters that she was sorry for the mistakes she made in her first marriage and In her present relationship with Vince Gill. She and Gary Chapman should not be battling each other anymore anyhow. Neither one of them are showing much Christianity with these things.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Jimmy Edwards:
What I heard is that Amy and Gary divorced because she wanted to have another baby, and he did not.

I don't think that's the case (don't know for sure), but if it is, that is by no means a reason to divorce.