An 18 month old baby

[Winman]

If there is an age of accountability, at what stage does God create sin? At what age does responsibility begin? Let us wipe out original sin, which is biblical, to accept a spurious "doctrine" to satisfy our own thinking, or lack of thinking.

Cheers,

Jim

First of all, God did not create sin. God cannot sin. As for the age of accountability, only God knows the heart, only God knows when a person truly understands sin and it's consequences. I have eight children, and they all matured at a different rate. My 11 year old daughter has the maturity of a 20 year old, while my 8 year old son barely seems his age. He is very smart, but much more childlike than my daughter.

And I do not believe in original sin, nor did any of the early church fathers until Augustine came along. Sin is not hereditary like eye color or other physical features.

I do believe we are all "flesh", that is what the scriptures say. The flesh has lusts and desires, the flesh is weak.

Eve had lust before she actually sinned. Look at what the scriptures say.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve had lust, Eve had desire. When she saw this fruit it looked good to eat. She probably thought it would be very delicious. The scriptures also say it was a tree "desired" to make one wise. She had desire. How could it possibly be desired if she had no desire?

And this is how we are born, flesh. We have lusts and desire. A little child wants every cookie on the plate, you have to teach the child to share.

These lusts and desires are natural, we are born with them. And they are not necessarily evil. It is not evil to be hungry, we need to eat to be healthy. But when we allow ourselves to lust after food to excess, then we can become overweight and affect our health. It is not wrong to have sex drive, as long as we control our desire and keep it within marriage as God designed. It is not wrong to desire to be wise, the scriptures tell us to seek wisdom.

But in the case of this forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve had a direct command from God not to eat it. The devil simply tempted her natural lusts, this is what the scriptures show.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God did not create evil. And giving us natural desires does not make God responsible for our sins. Every person is responsible to control their own lusts and desires, just as a person is required to drive within the speed limit even though their car is designed to go much faster. If I get a speeding ticket, it is not Honda's fault for making a car that can exceed the posted limit. Otherwise everyone would be entitled to sue the manufacturer of their car when they get a ticket. That would be ridiculous.

No, the scriptures say every man sins when he is drawn away of "his own lust" and enticed. Yes, our own lust and desire can tempt us, but we are expected to control these lusts, just as you are expected to control yourself and drive the speed limit.

Children are born with lust and desires. But children are not mature enough to either understand or control these desires.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes.. I have read the rendering of what they 'think' scripture is saying or speaking of/to (long before now) and on somethings they are correct just as on others they 'remain' incorrect. Remember that theology is man's understanding of what scripture is telling us. The above is but 'one' view.

The problem is and as I have shown earlier.. Jesus plainly states the above view of 'original guilt' is not a biblical doctrine. He revealed their sin, and if he had not done that.. they would not be guilty.

What shall we then say.. even though Jesus tells us otherwise (along with other scriptures as well).. it must still be a true saying?

Hello Allan,
Death comes to all because in Adam all died.Babies would not die if they were not conceived in sin. They are dead and guilty and stand dead in Adam.

14but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

15But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;

14Yet death held sway from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who did not themselves transgress [a positive command] as Adam did. Adam was a type (prefigure) of the One Who was to come [in reverse, the former destructive, the Latter saving].(B)

Allan....to error here would be to error on the gospel itself.
To say infants did not die in adam is to say infants cannot be foumd In Christ I know you would not want to say that:wavey:

Jesus did not teach otherwise.I think you are not understanding His statements accurately.

 

[percho]

First of all, God did not create sin. God cannot sin. As for the age of accountability, only God knows the heart, only God knows when a person truly understands sin and it's consequences. I have eight children, and they all matured at a different rate. My 11 year old daughter has the maturity of a 20 year old, while my 8 year old son barely seems his age. He is very smart, but much more childlike than my daughter.

And I do not believe in original sin, nor did any of the early church fathers until Augustine came along. Sin is not hereditary like eye color or other physical features.

I do believe we are all "flesh", that is what the scriptures say. The flesh has lusts and desires, the flesh is weak.

Eve had lust before she actually sinned. Look at what the scriptures say.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve had lust, Eve had desire. When she saw this fruit it looked good to eat. She probably thought it would be very delicious. The scriptures also say it was a tree "desired" to make one wise. She had desire. How could it possibly be desired if she had no desire?

And this is how we are born, flesh. We have lusts and desire. A little child wants every cookie on the plate, you have to teach the child to share.

These lusts and desires are natural, we are born with them. And they are not necessarily evil. It is not evil to be hungry, we need to eat to be healthy. But when we allow ourselves to lust after food to excess, then we can become overweight and affect our health. It is not wrong to have sex drive, as long as we control our desire and keep it within marriage as God designed. It is not wrong to desire to be wise, the scriptures tell us to seek wisdom.

But in the case of this forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve had a direct command from God not to eat it. The devil simply tempted her natural lusts, this is what the scriptures show.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God did not create evil. And giving us natural desires does not make God responsible for our sins. Every person is responsible to control their own lusts and desires, just as a person is required to drive within the speed limit even though their car is designed to go much faster. If I get a speeding ticket, it is not Honda's fault for making a car that can exceed the posted limit. Otherwise everyone would be entitled to sue the manufacturer of their car when they get a ticket. That would be ridiculous.

No, the scriptures say every man sins when he is drawn away of "his own lust" and enticed. Yes, our own lust and desire can tempt us, but we are expected to control these lusts, just as you are expected to control yourself and drive the speed limit.

Children are born with lust and desires. But children are not mature enough to either understand or control these desires.

Lets say that the following applies to someone that just turned 57 years old.
He/she is 57 years 10 hours and 6 minutes old. What does the following mean? That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

Was going to wait for answer however will go ahead and ask.

Is the meaning the same if he/she is 10 hours old? If not what is the difference?

 

[Tater77]

"Hello Allan,
Death comes to all because in Adam all died.Babies would not die if they were not conceived in sin. They are dead and guilty and stand dead in Adam."

How can you be conceived in sin when sex within marriage is not sinful? How do you reconcile your view in light of Ezekiel chapter 18? Where God Himself states we die for our own sins and no one elses !!!

Christ Himself was born of the flesh, yet sin free.

Also see Romans chapters 4-8

 

[webdog]

Hello Allan,
Death comes to all because in Adam all died.Babies would not die if they were not conceived in sin. They are dead and guilty and stand dead in Adam.

Death came to Christ and He was not guilty. Believers also die and are not guilty. Death spread to all (animals included...they don't sin).

To say infants did not die in adam is to say infants cannot be foumd In Christ I know you would not want to say that

Actually not. If anything, in understanding that verse your view stating all are guilty in Adam is connected by SO AS with the same "all" being made righteous in Christ. I know you don't believe every human also is in Christ, but your understanding that every human is in Adam must necessitate that meaning in that verse.

 

[freeatlast]

"Hello Allan,
Death comes to all because in Adam all died.Babies would not die if they were not conceived in sin. They are dead and guilty and stand dead in Adam."

How can you be conceived in sin when sex within marriage is not sinful? How do you reconcile your view in light of Ezekiel chapter 18? Where God Himself states we die for our own sins and no one elses !!!

Christ Himself was born of the flesh, yet sin free.

Also see Romans chapters 4-8

question;
How can you be conceived in sin when sex within marriage is not sinful?

Answer;
Because sin is a state or condition, nor simply an act or deed. Two sinners have little sinners.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All are sinners at birth even though they personally did not sin. That is why scripture says;
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
We are sinners because of what Adam did. Not because of what we do. Yes we rack up more sin, but initially we are sinners because of birth.

Question;
How do you reconcile your view in light of Ezekiel chapter 18? Where God Himself states we die for our own sins and no one else's !!!

Answer;
you are mistakenly equating physical death with spiritual death. First you have to read the entire passage. It also says this;
Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he [is] just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.


Well come on! we don't believe that the passage is suggesting that the person will live forever in the flesh! We know this is speaking spiritually. Going to heaven. Likewise for proper hermeneutics we have to hold that the person dying is dying spiritually. The point of the text is that these people were unjust. They would hold the fathers crimes against the son and also the reverse. And even greater then that they believed God was like them and did the same thing. So the Lord is showing that He is not like men. Each one will be guilty or acquitted by his/her own actions. Men may put you to death physically for the crime/sin of the father or the son, but God will not put you to death spiritually because of the father or son. That is the teaching.

 

[freeatlast]

Death came to Christ and He was not guilty. Believers also die and are not guilty. Death spread to all (animals included...they don't sin).

Actually not. If anything, in understanding that verse your view stating all are guilty in Adam is connected by SO AS with the same "all" being made righteous in Christ. I know you don't believe every human also is in Christ, but your understanding that every human is in Adam must necessitate that meaning in that verse.

Death came to Christ because He became sin. Second show me scripture that states that animals did not die before the fall. Scripture says this;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Trying to make a point with non scriptural statements is adding to scripture and lends itself to false teachings.
The only ones in creation promised life are the humans and they too are the only ones who felt death as part of the curse. Animals were never given eternal physical or spiritual life. There is no biblical reason to believe that animals have not always died even before the fall.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Hello Allan,
Death comes to all because in Adam all died.Babies would not die if they were not conceived in sin. They are dead and guilty and stand dead in Adam."

How can you be conceived in sin when sex within marriage is not sinful? How do you reconcile your view in light of Ezekiel chapter 18? Where God Himself states we die for our own sins and no one elses !!!

Christ Himself was born of the flesh, yet sin free.

Also see Romans chapters 4-8

How can you be conceived in sin when sex within marriage is not sinful? How do you reconcile your view in light of Ezekiel chapter 18? Where God Himself states we die for our own sins and no one elses !!!

psalm 51;


5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
all died in adam, that is why Jesus was born of a virgin so he was sinless without the sin of Adam.
So the very important section in Ezk 18 that you ask about is indeed very important in terms of evangelism.
Sinners dead in Adam by physical birth, need to be born from above by new birth.
3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Iconoclast]

Death came to Christ and He was not guilty. Believers also die and are not guilty. Death spread to all (animals included...they don't sin).

Actually not. If anything, in understanding that verse your view stating all are guilty in Adam is connected by SO AS with the same "all" being made righteous in Christ. I know you don't believe every human also is in Christ, but your understanding that every human is in Adam must necessitate that meaning in that verse.

Hello Webdog,
Thanks again for your response.This teaching in Romans 5 is a central teaching which helps tie together several teachings concerning the gospel that we all rejoice in.
The so as in Romans 5 is indeed central here as you post.Lets look at that for a minute.
The ALL in Adam.........by physical birth......died in him. He was the representative man. all mankind were effected by his sin and death.

Webdog.......draw a big circle on a piece of paper and label it all in adam.
then draw another circle inside of the first circle.....and label that ALL IN CHRIST.
As I wrote in the previous post'
even as or so as......all die in adam by physical union[the first circle]....... no exceptions......
As you wrote, all men are found in adam......but not all men are found in the second circle [IN UNION WITH CHRIST].....
God has elected the sheep.....while they were yet sinners rom5;8 Christ died for us......not all in adam.....but the all that are justified romans 5;1

look at 1cor 15; 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


This is how the all means all.......but it describes two different groups.

All alive in Christ.....were once dead in adam
not all that died in adam.....will be found alive in Christ eternally.

born once- die twice
born twice die once:wavey:

4. The Scriptures represent this as the method by which guilt was incurred through Adam. This is chiefly done in the well-known passage in the fifth chapter of Romans. The apostle is here arguing for the possibility of justification through the act of Christ. He does this by drawing a parallel between Christ and Adam, and the effects of Adam's sin and Christ's meritorious work. This parallel could be drawn only on the ground of federal representation. Only thus could it be in connection with Christ as it had been in connection with Adam. Christ could in no sense be a natural head of man. He could only be a constituted or appointed representative head. He is thus everywhere set forth. So the parallel made between him and Adam shows that the headship of the latter was representative and not natural only. The same truth is also taught in 1 Cor. 15:45-49, not only in the names given of the first and second Adam, but by the contrast between their natures and the effects produced by each. In these two chapters from Romans and Corinthians we find ascribed to men, because of the connection with Adam and as punishment of his sin, almost all the penalties which were inflicted upon Adam in the threatened penalty of death. There is the all-comprising word "death," declared to have come by sin, and that, the sin of one man, Rom. 5:12; death, which came upon all, even over those who had not sinned like Adam. In what respect "not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression" (v. 14) if reference be not made to the fact that there was no personal sin, as there is none in infants? This seems clearly suggested by the interjected expression "who is a figure of him that was to come;" (v. 14) for Adam was only a figure of Christ by virtue of this representative headship. "Judgement unto condemnation," another penalty of Adam's sin, is also declared to have come through one, V. 16, 18. The death of the soul, as the opposite of its spiritual life, is also asserted to have resulted from one man's offence, V. 17. The controlling power of this sin, which causes tile inability to return to God and serve him, is shown by the declaration that "sin reigned in death," (v. 21), which is a result of the one man's disobedience mentioned in v. 19. If natural death is not included in the word "death" in this chapter, and the denial that it is so included is hardly possible, it is yet certainly connected with representation in Adam in 1 Cor. 15:22. These two chapters, therefore, show this representative relation of Adam; and that because of it all men have sinned in him and are justly treated as sinners.

The discussion of this representative relation of Adam has rendered necessary a reference to that of Christ. It will be appropriate, therefore, to present in a tabular form the parallel between the consequences of these relations as a further proof of the representative character of each of these persons:


THOSE REPRESENTED IN ADAM.
THOSE REPRESENTED IN CHRIST.
Sin is imputed. Righteousness is imputed.
Treated as though sinners. Treated as though righteous.
Not thus personally sinners. Not thus personally righteous.
Not regarded as actually guilty of Adam's sin. Not regarded as actually meritoriously possessed of Christ's righteousness.
But only sinners representatively. But only righteous representatively.
Though not personally sinners in Adam, yet born sinful, and naturally becoming actual sinners. Though not personally holy in Christ, yet born again unto holiness, and graciously becoming more and more holy until finally sanctified.
Condemned to all the penalties of death because of Adam's sin. Released from penalty, and attaining to spiritual life and immortality, because of Christ's active and passive obedience.
Voluntarily accepting the relation to Adam, and persevering in the life of sin inaugurated by him. Voluntarily, though by God's help and grace, accepting the relation to Christ, and persevering in the holy life into which he has brought them.

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[percho]

Well sometimes all means all and sometimes all doesn't mean all. Let's ask Bill Clinton what is means. Did Adam's sin bring death to all men? Did Christ die not only for our sin but also for the sin of the whole world? At this present time are some predestinated / chosen / elected to receive the firstfruit of the spirit? Romans 8:23,28,29

Being first is used in relation to fruit of the spirit does this imply there will be other fruit later when compared to the following. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. Ephesians 1:9,10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: Philippians 2:10,11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Where would the 18 month old maybe fall in this thought?

Notice I said maybe.

In Acts 15:17 whom does the residue of men see after? Just the Lord only?
Could this residue of men be made up of those alive and also those raised from the dead?

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but; that the world through him might be saved. Ye must be born again.

 

[Winman]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You are reading into the verse what is does not say. It says Adam introduced sin into the world, it does not say Adam's sin passed on us. It simply does not say that, you have to read into the verse to get that. The judgment for sin which is death came by sin.

But read carefully, it then says death passed upon all men for (because of) that all have sinned. Death passes upon us because we sin, not because of Adam.

 

[Winman]

As I wrote in the previous post'
even as or so as......all die in adam by physical union[the first circle]....... no exceptions......

This is false. Sin is not something you physically inherit like eye color, else Jesus would have been a sinner, as Mary was a sinner.

This false teaching is exactly why the Catholics had to invent the false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. You do know that they are speaking of Mary and not Jesus in this doctrine don't you? They had to teach that Mary was conceived without sin so that Jesus would not be born a sinner by inheriting sin from his mother. But how could Mary be without sin if her mother and father were sinners and we inherit sin from our parents?

One false doctrine leads to another.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are reading into the verse what is does not say. It says Adam introduced sin into the world, it does not say Adam's sin passed on us. It simply does not say that, you have to read into the verse to get that. The judgment for sin which is death came by sin.

But read carefully, it then says death passed upon all men for (because of) that all have sinned. Death passes upon us because we sin, not because of Adam.

Winman,
Then Jesus righteousness would not come to believers either.You must get this correct, or you miss the meaning of the passage...look here;
[QUOTE 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Also look here;

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
][/QUOTE]
Do you see it? the first adam/ the last Adam.......two representative men.
Winman , this is very important. Take time with this passage. i posted a response to webdog that works on this passage.
Draw out the two circles like i suggested to him,and read the link and let me know what you think.

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,
Death comes to all because in Adam all died.Babies would not die if they were not conceived in sin. They are dead and guilty and stand dead in Adam.

1. Did I state all are 'not' in Adam?
Answer: No.

2. Did I state they were 'not' conceived in sin?
Answer: No.

However, the one point you address that I did speak to, you did so with rhetoric and without scripture or any explanation speaking to the passages. So as it is one in which I addressed 'with' scriptures and explanation of it I request you explain the meaning of Christ's words regarding them. (the John 15 and John 9 passages)

Although let it be known, I agree all men are born in with original sin which IS the sin nature and why all men without fail will, of their own choice, sin. They are corrupt and marred as I previously stated.

However I can find NO specific scripture(s), allusions to, or principles in scripture that even sort of allude to the fact that anyone at anytime has ever or will ever be cast into hell due to the 'imputed guilt' of original sin alone .

What we do consistently have from the scriptures (as in the Romans passage we are discussing) is mankind choosing (or making a conscience choice) to sin but never does it state or allude to man going to hell for just being born (ie.. having original sin). However we DO have allusions of children going to heaven.

If we start anywhere let us begin with Jesus words and their implications.

Allan....to error here would be to error on the gospel itself.

No sir.. to assume there is error here is to, in my opinion, have misconceptions about the gospel.

Jesus did not teach otherwise.I think you are not understanding His statements accurately.

You have yet to give biblical proof of this.
I have already shown where Jesus plainly states in simple terms..

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

or as the ESV puts it -
Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

or

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

or as the ESV puts it -
Jhm 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.

It is plain (to me at least) that Jesus disagrees with you

 

[Winman]

I disagree with your interpretation of these scriptures. Look at verse 18.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If you teach that death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, then you must also believe that the free gift of justification of life came upon all men because of Christ's righteousness. "All men" in this verse is the exact same words in Greek with the exact same definition. You can't get around this.

But it is not saying death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, it is saying by Adam's sin came judgment. That is very different. Let me see if I can explain.

Back in the 60s when I was a teenager LSD was the rage. People were taking LSD left and right and the law could do nothing about it because there were no laws against it. People were having bad trips and jumping out of windows and in front of cars, some people were experincing long lasting psychological affects from this drug. It was dangerous, but again, the law could do absolutely nothing to stop it, it was not illegal.

Because of these people that were experimenting with LSD, laws were passed against it. It had existed from the 1930's and was never a problem until these folks abused it. So these people who abused it brought about or introduced a judgment when laws had to be passed because of it's abuse.

Do you understand that? If you use LSD you can be arrested because of the judgment introduced by these people who abused it in the 60's.

This is what Adam did. He introduced sin, and he also introduced the judgment for it which is death.

But God doesn't place this judgment on you simply for being born, otherwise verse 18 would teach you are saved simply by being born. Do you get that? No, you have to sin, just as someone has to possess or use LSD to come under the judgment or penalty of law introduced for it.

And it is the same with Jesus. By his righteousness he introduced the free gift of justification unto life, but you don't simply receive it, you have to believe on Jesus to receive this.

Romans 5:12 is not saying Adam's sin passed onto you. It is saying he introduced sin into the world which introduced the judgment for sin which is death. And then it is saying this judgment of death has passed upon all men because all men have sinned. Not Adam's sin, our own sin. God never punishes the father for the sins of the children or vice versa as shown in the scriptures several times.

Otherwise you would have to believe Romans 5:18 is teaching Universalism, that all men are saved.

You can't have it both ways, if all men in verse 18 pertains to the judgment, then all men also pertains to the free gift.

This proves that your concept is error. Verse 18 cannot possibly mean that because we know not all men are saved.

 

[Winman]

Although let it be known, I agree all men are born in with original sin which IS the sin nature and why all men without fail will, of their own choice, sin. They are corrupt and marred as I previously stated.

If this is true, then Adam and Eve were created with original sin. Did they not of their own free will choose to sin?

But we know this is not so, because God declared everything he had created "very good" in Gen 1:31.

You might answer that Adam and Eve had true freedom of will to choose to do either good or evil. This is true. But Cain had this same ability.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God himself makes it perfectly clear that Cain could choose to do well (good) and if he did so would be accepted with God, or he could choose to do evil. He also said that Cain would rule over sin.

So, how was Cain one bit different from his parents?

 

[percho]

I disagree with your interpretation of these scriptures. Look at verse 18.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If you teach that death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, then you must also believe that the free gift of justification of life came upon all men because of Christ's righteousness. "All men" in this verse is the exact same words in Greek with the exact same definition. You can't get around this.

But it is not saying death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, it is saying by Adam's sin came judgment. That is very different. Let me see if I can explain.

Back in the 60s when I was a teenager LSD was the rage. People were taking LSD left and right and the law could do nothing about it because there were no laws against it. People were having bad trips and jumping out of windows and in front of cars, some people were experincing long lasting psychological affects from this drug. It was dangerous, but again, the law could do absolutely nothing to stop it, it was not illegal.

Because of these people that were experimenting with LSD, laws were passed against it. It had existed from the 1930's and was never a problem until these folks abused it. So these people who abused it brought about or introduced a judgment when laws had to be passed because of it's abuse.

Do you understand that? If you use LSD you can be arrested because of the judgment introduced by these people who abused it in the 60's.

This is what Adam did. He introduced sin, and he also introduced the judgment for it which is death.

But God doesn't place this judgment on you simply for being born, otherwise verse 18 would teach you are saved simply by being born. Do you get that? No, you have to sin, just as someone has to possess or use LSD to come under the judgment or penalty of law introduced for it.

And it is the same with Jesus. By his righteousness he introduced the free gift of justification unto life, but you don't simply receive it, you have to believe on Jesus to receive this.

Romans 5:12 is not saying Adam's sin passed onto you. It is saying he introduced sin into the world which introduced the judgment for sin which is death. And then it is saying this judgment of death has passed upon all men because all men have sinned. Not Adam's sin, our own sin. God never punishes the father for the sins of the children or vice versa as shown in the scriptures several times.

Otherwise you would have to believe Romans 5:18 is teaching Universalism, that all men are saved.

You can't have it both ways, if all men in verse 18 pertains to the judgment, then all men also pertains to the free gift.

This proves that your concept is error. Verse 18 cannot possibly mean that because we know not all men are saved.

I guess you are saying that all men are saved IF they are willing to save themselves by believing on or in Jesus. Or maybe I should have said are willing to be saved.

 

[Winman]

I guess you are saying that all men are saved IF they are willing to save themselves by believing on or in Jesus. Or maybe I should have said are willing to be saved.

What did Peter say?

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

By the way, Peter said this on the day of Pentacost under the full inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

And what does Revelations 22:17 say about being willing to be saved?

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So, you tell me, what do the scriptures say?

Or do you prefer the teachings of Augustine and Calvin over scripture?

 

[webdog]

Death came to Christ because He became sin. Second show me scripture that states that animals did not die before the fall. Scripture says this;

Death entered into the world due to sin. No sin, no death...lyour very own "proof text" states just that "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Trying to make a point with non scriptural statements is adding to scripture and lends itself to false teachings.

You mean like Jesus being a sinner, believers no longer sinning, and animals dying prior to sin entering the world?

The only ones in creation promised life are the humans and they too are the only ones who felt death as part of the curse. Animals were never given eternal physical or spiritual life. There is no biblical reason to believe that animals have not always died even before the fall.

Actually there is, it's found in the Bible. See my first response.

 

[webdog]

Hello Webdog,
Thanks again for your response.This teaching in Romans 5 is a central teaching which helps tie together several teachings concerning the gospel that we all rejoice in.
The so as in Romans 5 is indeed central here as you post.Lets look at that for a minute.
The ALL in Adam.........by physical birth......died in him. He was the representative man. all mankind were effected by his sin and death.

Webdog.......draw a big circle on a piece of paper and label it all in adam.
then draw another circle inside of the first circle.....and label that ALL IN CHRIST.
As I wrote in the previous post'
even as or so as......all die in adam by physical union[the first circle]....... no exceptions......
As you wrote, all men are found in adam......but not all men are found in the second circle [IN UNION WITH CHRIST].....
God has elected the sheep.....while they were yet sinners rom5;8 Christ died for us......not all in adam.....but the all that are justified romans 5;1

look at 1cor 15; 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


This is how the all means all.......but it describes two different groups.

All alive in Christ.....were once dead in adam
not all that died in adam.....will be found alive in Christ eternally.

born once- die twice
born twice die once:wavey:

4. The Scriptures represent this as the method by which guilt was incurred through Adam. This is chiefly done in the well-known passage in the fifth chapter of Romans. The apostle is here arguing for the possibility of justification through the act of Christ. He does this by drawing a parallel between Christ and Adam, and the effects of Adam's sin and Christ's meritorious work. This parallel could be drawn only on the ground of federal representation. Only thus could it be in connection with Christ as it had been in connection with Adam. Christ could in no sense be a natural head of man. He could only be a constituted or appointed representative head. He is thus everywhere set forth. So the parallel made between him and Adam shows that the headship of the latter was representative and not natural only. The same truth is also taught in 1 Cor. 15:45-49, not only in the names given of the first and second Adam, but by the contrast between their natures and the effects produced by each. In these two chapters from Romans and Corinthians we find ascribed to men, because of the connection with Adam and as punishment of his sin, almost all the penalties which were inflicted upon Adam in the threatened penalty of death. There is the all-comprising word "death," declared to have come by sin, and that, the sin of one man, Rom. 5:12; death, which came upon all, even over those who had not sinned like Adam. In what respect "not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression" (v. 14) if reference be not made to the fact that there was no personal sin, as there is none in infants? This seems clearly suggested by the interjected expression "who is a figure of him that was to come;" (v. 14) for Adam was only a figure of Christ by virtue of this representative headship. "Judgement unto condemnation," another penalty of Adam's sin, is also declared to have come through one, V. 16, 18. The death of the soul, as the opposite of its spiritual life, is also asserted to have resulted from one man's offence, V. 17. The controlling power of this sin, which causes tile inability to return to God and serve him, is shown by the declaration that "sin reigned in death," (v. 21), which is a result of the one man's disobedience mentioned in v. 19. If natural death is not included in the word "death" in this chapter, and the denial that it is so included is hardly possible, it is yet certainly connected with representation in Adam in 1 Cor. 15:22. These two chapters, therefore, show this representative relation of Adam; and that because of it all men have sinned in him and are justly treated as sinners.

The discussion of this representative relation of Adam has rendered necessary a reference to that of Christ. It will be appropriate, therefore, to present in a tabular form the parallel between the consequences of these relations as a further proof of the representative character of each of these persons:


THOSE REPRESENTED IN ADAM.
THOSE REPRESENTED IN CHRIST.
Sin is imputed. Righteousness is imputed.
Treated as though sinners. Treated as though righteous.
Not thus personally sinners. Not thus personally righteous.
Not regarded as actually guilty of Adam's sin. Not regarded as actually meritoriously possessed of Christ's righteousness.
But only sinners representatively. But only righteous representatively.
Though not personally sinners in Adam, yet born sinful, and naturally becoming actual sinners. Though not personally holy in Christ, yet born again unto holiness, and graciously becoming more and more holy until finally sanctified.
Condemned to all the penalties of death because of Adam's sin. Released from penalty, and attaining to spiritual life and immortality, because of Christ's active and passive obedience.
Voluntarily accepting the relation to Adam, and persevering in the life of sin inaugurated by him. Voluntarily, though by God's help and grace, accepting the relation to Christ, and persevering in the holy life into which he has brought them.

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Actually the wording of the passage in question would require your analogy of two circles to be overlapping as the same "all" that are in Adam are connected equally with the "all" in Christ.