An 18 month old baby

[Winman]

The scriptures do point to the fact that little children are not held accountable for their sin.

When Jonah complained about the gourd that shielded him from the heat, God asked if Jonah should be angry for a gourd. Jonah answered yes. Then God answered that Ninevah had 120,000 children who could not tell between their right hand and their left hand, and much cattle, should he not have mercy on them?

Jonah 4:8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

God speaks of children's discernment here. They cannot tell between their right hand and their left hand, could they possibly understand sin and eternal judgment?

And I always thought it a little funny that God also spoke of cattle. Do cattle understand morality? Do they understand sin? I could be wrong, but I think God was comparing these children to cattle in that they have no concept of right and wrong.

God also did not punish the young people when their parents sinned in the wilderness. In this case he set the age at 20 years old.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God said these children had no knowledge between good and evil and spared them up to twenty years old, so an 18 month old could hardly be held accountable.

Jesus said we must become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. I hardly believe he was telling us we should be sinners.

Matt 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah speaks of a child knowing to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

So, while children have the same flesh nature and can perform acts that are sinful, I believe there is much scripture to show that God does not hold them accountable until they reach a state of maturity and can clearly understand between right and wrong.

An 18 month old child has no concept whatsoever of what is right and wrong and therefore God would not hold them accountable for any sin they might have committed in ignorance. I believe all little children are saved.

 

[annsni]

God is just, but he is also merciful and loving. Babies and innocent children who die are in the arms of Jesus. I could not worship a God who sends babies to Hell. You people who think that babies go to hell are sick, sick, sick. How could you follow a religion that teaches that God's judgement falls on the heads of his innocent children?

Well, "innocent" is relative, isn't it? They would not only need to be completely void of sin but holy as well. Are they? Scripture tells us that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Not just adults. Even children are stained from sin - conceived in iniquity. God sends those to hell who deserve it. We measure on a "good" or "bad" spectrum but God measures on a "holy" or "not holy" spectrum. I could worship a God who sends babies to hell if that is where they deserve to go. I worship a God who is holy, just and right. He does what He does because of who He is. I'm just glad He doesn't use man's measuring stick because then I'd STILL be going to hell.

 

[annsni]

The scriptures do point to the fact that little children are not held accountable for their sin.

When Jonah complained about the gourd that shielded him from the heat, God asked if Jonah should be angry for a gourd. Jonah answered yes. Then God answered that Ninevah had 120,000 children who could not tell between their right hand and their left hand, and much cattle, should he not have mercy on them?

Jonah 4:8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

God speaks of children's discernment here. They cannot tell between their right hand and their left hand, could they possibly understand sin and eternal judgment?

And I always thought it a little funny that God also spoke of cattle. Do cattle understand morality? Do they understand sin? I could be wrong, but I think God was comparing these children to cattle in that they have no concept of right and wrong.

God also did not punish the young people when their parents sinned in the wilderness. In this case he set the age at 20 years old.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God said these children had no knowledge between good and evil and spared them up to twenty years old, so an 18 month old could hardly be held accountable.

Jesus said we must become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. I hardly believe he was telling us we should be sinners.

Matt 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah speaks of a child knowing to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

So, while children have the same flesh nature and can perform acts that are sinful, I believe there is much scripture to show that God does not hold them accountable until they reach a state of maturity and can clearly understand between right and wrong.

An 18 month old child has no concept whatsoever of what is right and wrong and therefore God would not hold them accountable for any sin they might have committed in ignorance. I believe all little children are saved.

Yet there are many instances of God making sure even the children and animals of certain peoples were slaughtered. If they were innocent, why kill them?

 

[Amy.G]

Yet there are many instances of God making sure even the children and animals of certain peoples were slaughtered. If they were innocent, why kill them?

Because there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death.

 

[annsni]

Because there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death.

However, Winman pointed out that children were innocent so God did not hold them accountable. Yet I showed the opposite is true as well - that God DID hold even infants accountable and had them killed.

 

[Winman]

Yet there are many instances of God making sure even the children and animals of certain peoples were slaughtered. If they were innocent, why kill them?

You will probably disagree with this, but I believe the reason God often commanded the children to be killed was an act of mercy. If they had survived and grown they would have learned and accepted the false religion of their parents that would doom them to hell.

So, in this instance it was an act of mercy, God killing these children before they could accept their parents religion.

We see an example of this when Moses commanded the Jews to kill the Midianites.

Num 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Moses was angry because they spared the adult women. Moses reminded them that the Midianite woman had caused the children of Israel to sin worshipping Peor and brought a plague among them. He had all the male children killed but spared the young women who were virgins. I believe this is because the males were the spiritual leaders in the home.

Matthew Henry had a similar view:

2. "It is dangerous to let them live; they will be still tempting the Israelites to uncleanness, and so your captives will be your conquerors and a second time your destroyers.’’ Severe orders are therefore given that all the grown women should be slain in cold blood, and only the female children spared.

So, there was a two-fold purpose in destroying children. The children would grow and introduce false religion to the Jews resulting in their own harm. But also, the children slain would not grow up and accept the false religion of their fathers and be doomed to hell.

In this respect, it is merciful to slay children before they grow up and go to hell.

 

[Winman]

Another example of this concept is when Pharaoh ordered only the male children of the Hebrews to be killed, but the female children were allowed to live.

Exo 1:15 And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

Why did Pharaoh command only the male children be killed? Because they would grow and promote the Hebrew religion and culture among the Egyptians.

However, the women would marry Egyptian males and be assimilated into the Egyptian culture.

 

[annsni]

But I could easily raise a pagan child to know the Lord Jesus Christ. They do not know of their past at all unless someone were to teach them. So how is it merciful to murder a 1 month old child who knows nothing of it's mother's breast and it's father's arms? Why not save that child and raise him in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?

 

[percho]

Because there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death.

There is also a difference between physical birth and spiritual birth. UNLESS a certain one is born from above he CANNOT see or enter or I might add inherit the kingdom of God. I don't know if this has anything to do with God sending someone to Hell of not.

 

[Winman]

But I could easily raise a pagan child to know the Lord Jesus Christ. They do not know of their past at all unless someone were to teach them. So how is it merciful to murder a 1 month old child who knows nothing of it's mother's breast and it's father's arms? Why not save that child and raise him in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?

Well, you know how kids are, they want to know their real parents, their roots and all. It is not that they don't love you, it is just sort of natural that a person wants to know where they really came from.

Up until the 60's the vast majority of African Americans were Christians. But there was a movement to connect with their ancestors in Africa and many thousands have converted to Islam. Remember Cassius Clay? Lew Alcindor?

Native-born American Muslims are mainly African Americans who make up a quarter of the total Muslim population. Many of these have converted to Islam during the last seventy years.

 

[annsni]

Well, you know how kids are, they want to know their real parents, their roots and all. It is not that they don't love you, it is just sort of natural that a person wants to know where they really came from.

Up until the 60's the vast majority of African Americans were Christians. But there was a movement to connect with their ancestors in Africa and many thousands have converted to Islam. Remember Cassius Clay? Lew Alcindor?

I was adopted and I didn't need to know about my roots. Yes, I know some information about my birth parents - but even though I was given my birth mother's name, address and phone number, I have no desire to contact her or open up a past that is past. My younger brother, who was adopted by another family feels the same way. So not all kids are the same.

 

[Winman]

I was adopted and I didn't need to know about my roots. Yes, I know some information about my birth parents - but even though I was given my birth mother's name, address and phone number, I have no desire to contact her or open up a past that is past. My younger brother, who was adopted by another family feels the same way. So not all kids are the same.

True, but that does not negate the evidence you have seen with your own eyes in this country. Many thousands of African Americans have converted from Christianity to Islam simply because their ancestors were Muslims.

This is why Moses was angry, he knew the Midianite women would influence the Jews to turn from God, they already had in fact. He killed the males because they would have revived their ancestral religion. The young girls were more easily assimilated into the Jewish culture by the males.

This is also why Pharaoh commanded the male children to be killed but allowed the females to live.

You've seen it with your own eyes in this country. And almost all of the leaders were males.

 

[Robert Snow]

Well, "innocent" is relative, isn't it? They would not only need to be completely void of sin but holy as well. Are they? Scripture tells us that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Not just adults. Even children are stained from sin - conceived in iniquity. God sends those to hell who deserve it. We measure on a "good" or "bad" spectrum but God measures on a "holy" or "not holy" spectrum. I could worship a God who sends babies to hell if that is where they deserve to go. I worship a God who is holy, just and right. He does what He does because of who He is. I'm just glad He doesn't use man's measuring stick because then I'd STILL be going to hell.

So then you believe that some children who are conceived but die before birth are in eternal torment from the first moment of consciousness throughout eternity?

Yet, you claim to say that God is loving? Very sick!

 

[saved by grace]

So are you saying some babies will go to Hell?
Yes or no?

According to the bible they must go to hell.

A baby has not accepted Christ as his personal Savior

"Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

A baby cannot believe.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Since we are saved by faith alone a baby cannot be saved since they cannot have faith. THis is a hard thing to accept but scripture is clear. To say otherwise is to put our own interpretaion into God's words.

"Therefore since we are justified by faith we have peace with God."

The words "age of accountability" are not found in scripture. We cannot add to God's words. If babies could be saved without faith then He would have put those words into scripture.

 

[Salty]

The words "age of accountability" are not found in scripture. We cannot add to God's words. If babies could be saved without faith then He would have put those words into scripture.

First thank you for your direct answer.

but second, based on the quote from above, I would assume you do not beleive in the trinity?

 

[annsni]

So then you believe that some children who are conceived but die before birth are in eternal torment from the first moment of consciousness throughout eternity?

Yet, you claim to say that God is loving? Very sick!

Is it loving to go against His Word? Is it loving to say that there's only one way to heaven but instead have multiple ways? The God of the Bible is not only loving but He's just and He's righteous and holy. That makes a world of difference over our view of what "loving" is.

As I've said, I don't know where babies go. That is not up to me but to God. However, in reading Scripture, I can safely say that babies don't go to heaven by any merit of their own - whether they be "innocent" or whatever. If they go to heaven, it would be through the same grace that is given to all who are saved. Can babies believe in their own way? I don't know. I do know that Scripture tells us that no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. End of story. It is not sick to think that God is just and sends the unredeemed to hell.

 

[Robert Snow]

Is it loving to go against His Word? Is it loving to say that there's only one way to heaven but instead have multiple ways? The God of the Bible is not only loving but He's just and He's righteous and holy. That makes a world of difference over our view of what "loving" is.

As I've said, I don't know where babies go. That is not up to me but to God. However, in reading Scripture, I can safely say that babies don't go to heaven by any merit of their own - whether they be "innocent" or whatever. If they go to heaven, it would be through the same grace that is given to all who are saved. Can babies believe in their own way? I don't know. I do know that Scripture tells us that no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. End of story. It is not sick to think that God is just and sends the unredeemed to hell.

This thread points out the dangers of hyper-conservatism; it attributes evil actions to a just God. Again, SICK!!!!

If I thought for a minute that God would condemn someone who did not have a chance of heaven to hell, I would burn every bible in my house!!!

 

[annsni]

This thread points out the dangers of hyper-conservatism; it attributes evil actions to a just God. Again, SICK!!!!

If I thought for a minute that God would condemn someone who did not have a chance of heaven to hell, I would burn every bible in my house!!!

How do we know that infants do not have a chance to choose God? We don't. God sends those to hell who deserve to be there no matter what we think. The absolute best person in the world still goes to hell because they have not been covered by Jesus' blood. Yet there are the most vile people who have come to know Jesus on their death bed and they will be in heaven. Man's wisdom is very different than God's and I would never dare to say that God has to do things according to MY will.

Do you not think that murdering innocent children is evil? In my humanness, I would say "yes" but God did just that - murder innocent infants on the night of Passover. But I know that God is not evil and He had a purpose that does not fit in with my mortal understanding yet I trust Him and would never call what He does evil.

To decide that God's righteousness needs to match up with a human understanding of right and wrong is a very man-centered, self-focused and ignorant stance, IMO. God is God and I'm not, thank God. I trust Him to do what is just and right in HIS view - not mine.

 

[Robert Snow]

Do you not think that murdering innocent children is evil? In my humanness, I would say "yes" but God did just that - murder innocent infants on the night of Passover...

You should have no problem with abortion then.

 

[menageriekeeper]

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

While I agree with Winman's assessment for the most part, we can't forget that Paul speaks in a way which agrees with Ann's point of view.

The difference between a holy child fit for heaven, seems to be a parent who is a believer.

If that doesn't put parents on their game, I don't know what will.