I wouldn't if I felt that it guaranteed a child a place in heaven. After all, if a child dies and they automatically go to heaven, isn't it better to kill all the children to save their souls?? But instead, I know that murder is wrong and that each child is a potential life lived for God's glory so instead I choose life.
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An 18 month old baby
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
I wouldn't if I felt that it guaranteed a child a place in heaven. After all, if a child dies and they automatically go to heaven, isn't it better to kill all the children to save their souls?? But instead, I know that murder is wrong and that each child is a potential life lived for God's glory so instead I choose life.
Yep - So we say that God is wrong by murdering innocents.
Remember, I was showing that murder is wrong in our human view yet God murdered people. Is it wrong when God murders someone? Do we say that He's evil because He did so?
First of all, there is nobody innocent. That child is still a sinner by nature.
Secondly, you don't know if any infants were killed. I don't remember the bible saying whether infants were killed or not.
Third, God has never murdered anyone. He has judged people and taken their lives. God can do that because He is the sovereign ruler and judge of the universe. The truth is, God is far better to everyone on this planet than we deserve.
Finally, the absolute best person in the world is a horrible wretched sinner deserving of hell.
You make God out to be some sort of random judge. He lets the good go to hell and the wicked into heaven. That's the picture you paint. If someone is good, it's because God changed their heart and made them good. If someone is wicked, it's because they have been left to themselves.
Secondly, you don't know if any infants were killed. I don't remember the bible saying whether infants were killed or not.
Third, God has never murdered anyone. He has judged people and taken their lives. God can do that because He is the sovereign ruler and judge of the universe. The truth is, God is far better to everyone on this planet than we deserve.
Finally, the absolute best person in the world is a horrible wretched sinner deserving of hell.
You make God out to be some sort of random judge. He lets the good go to hell and the wicked into heaven. That's the picture you paint. If someone is good, it's because God changed their heart and made them good. If someone is wicked, it's because they have been left to themselves.
There were certainly infant firstborn in Egypt , were there not?
Are you addressing this to me? If so, I agree with you completely.
freeatlast
New Member
Scripture is not clear if ANY child will go if they have not come to faith no matter the age. We are born into sin. We are sinners at birth, even conception. The only remedy for this problem that scripture gives is grace through repentance and faith and an 18 month cannot have faith. That being said my guess is that they would go even though scripture is not clear on the matter. My guess and it is only a guess is that there is some provision that is in place that we have not been told about, but it is a guess. raying:
raying:It's true that the only way to Heave is through Jesus Christ. He died to save us all. I believe that includes innocent babies, children, and the mentally handicapped who are not able to make a "profession of faith" but are innocent of actual sin.
If you want to have your pure, Biblically based personal interpretations of what God can or cannot do, be my guest. I will continue to trust in the mercy and goodness of God - who is ever so much more than we can ever conceive of.
If you want to have your pure, Biblically based personal interpretations of what God can or cannot do, be my guest. I will continue to trust in the mercy and goodness of God - who is ever so much more than we can ever conceive of.
freeatlast
New Member
Peggy today many people in the claimed church are with you. :tear:
Are there any humans in this world who are innocent of actual sin? If so, then Jesus didn't need to die for them and there would be another way to get to heaven. Salvation is through faith - isn't that what the Bible says? But you're saying that there is salvation through faith AND "innocence"? Do you have any Scriptural support for that?
God has revealed some of Himself in the Bible. But as He is God, there is no way that he can reveal all of himself in the pages of a book. We err when we try to confine his will and his ways to our understanding of the Bible. God can will and do according to his pleasure, whether we like it or not. Whether we understand it or not.
Jesus died to save all men. That includes, according to Paul, those who by no fault of their own, did not have an opportunity to know Jesus.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Jesus died to save all men. That would include the unborn, infants, and those without the capacity to make a profession of faith. I believe that a just God would have mercy on them.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
As I said before, God is ever so much bigger than the pages of the Bible. Why do we judge others by what we think he should do or not do?
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Jesus died to save all men. That includes, according to Paul, those who by no fault of their own, did not have an opportunity to know Jesus.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Jesus died to save all men. That would include the unborn, infants, and those without the capacity to make a profession of faith. I believe that a just God would have mercy on them.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
As I said before, God is ever so much bigger than the pages of the Bible. Why do we judge others by what we think he should do or not do?
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
freeatlast
New Member
Actually Peggy you are confused on the scripture. The passage in Romans is not saying that those who do not hear get to go to heaven since that would be works salvation. It is saying that those who have not the law will be judged by or in themselves. Everyone has done things that violates even their own conscience. So that will condemn them. You have made it clear here by your post that you have a god that is not the bibles God. You have made one that suites your own wants and desires. That is a big mistake.
While we say that infants and the mentally handicapped cannot make a profession of faith, is that just in our understanding? Or is God such that He knows the hearts of even a newborn to be able to understand them and their response to what they know? While they may not know it in our "normal" human terms, how do we not know that there isn't another way for them to have faith and understanding of God in order to be saved or unsaved? Is God not able to get His Word to them as well outside of them having to be mature enough to know?
Actually what it says is those Gentiles, despite not having the written law as the Jews did, still kept (not in the sense of perfection) the law, which showed that they had the law written on their hearts.
We believe that a person goes to heaven becasue he has accepted Christ as his Saviour.
But why does a person go to Hell. Is it beacuse he has rejected/denied Christ. If so, than an infant and/or (severly) mentaly retarded person has not rejected/denied Christ. (Luke 12:8-10)
But why does a person go to Hell. Is it beacuse he has rejected/denied Christ. If so, than an infant and/or (severly) mentaly retarded person has not rejected/denied Christ. (Luke 12:8-10)
What if one doesn't accept Christ but doesn't deny Christ? That would be the category of those who have never heard of Christ including infants/severely mentally handicapped.
Thus the wisdom of God?
convicted1
Guest
18 month old baby?
Okay, after reading these posts, I really have to scratch my head.
I will humbly try to make a few points here, as concise as possible:
Romans Ch. 8:6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans Ch. 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Now, can an 18 month old infant be carnally minded? For that matter, can they even have the "mind of Christ"? An infant knows very little, except when they are hungry, have an ache, needs a diaper changed, etc.
Ezek. Ch. 18:4 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek. Ch.18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
These two scriptures in Ezekiel states the "soul that sins" shall die, not the body. Why? The death sentence was pronounced upon ALL CREATION, because of the sin of Adam. The death sentence is pronounced on the soul "know to do good and do it not".
James Ch. 4: 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
So, one last question to you all. Does a baby know to do good or bad, and know the consequences in answering to God? I personally say "no". Let's look at this scenario. You tell your 18 month old infant to stay out of the cookies. They then sneek in a get one, or more. You catch them and say, "I thought I told you to stay out of the cookies." Their reply would be something like, "I was getting this cookie for you", knowing they really weren't. That's the "sin nature" taking over. Now, they really didn't know it was a sin, meaning they'd have to answer to God for this lie, but they lied trying to keep from getting there butt spanked, or timeout. That's the differnce. They knew they had to answer to mommy and/or daddy for this, but not to God. MAJOR DIFFERENCE!!
Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:16
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
With love!!
i am I am's!!
Willis
Okay, after reading these posts, I really have to scratch my head.
I will humbly try to make a few points here, as concise as possible:
Romans Ch. 8:6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans Ch. 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Now, can an 18 month old infant be carnally minded? For that matter, can they even have the "mind of Christ"? An infant knows very little, except when they are hungry, have an ache, needs a diaper changed, etc.
Ezek. Ch. 18:4 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek. Ch.18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
These two scriptures in Ezekiel states the "soul that sins" shall die, not the body. Why? The death sentence was pronounced upon ALL CREATION, because of the sin of Adam. The death sentence is pronounced on the soul "know to do good and do it not".
James Ch. 4: 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
So, one last question to you all. Does a baby know to do good or bad, and know the consequences in answering to God? I personally say "no". Let's look at this scenario. You tell your 18 month old infant to stay out of the cookies. They then sneek in a get one, or more. You catch them and say, "I thought I told you to stay out of the cookies." Their reply would be something like, "I was getting this cookie for you", knowing they really weren't. That's the "sin nature" taking over. Now, they really didn't know it was a sin, meaning they'd have to answer to God for this lie, but they lied trying to keep from getting there butt spanked, or timeout. That's the differnce. They knew they had to answer to mommy and/or daddy for this, but not to God. MAJOR DIFFERENCE!!
Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:16
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
With love!!
i am I am's!!
Willis