An abortion thread

[Songbird]

Ok, I'll throw in my .02. Some of my statements answer my belief on some of those previously posted on this thread.

1. I would not abort a child if he/she was the product of rape. Who am I to kill a child whom God has a plan for. No, God didn't cause the rape. Plus, the occurance of conception through rape is very minute.

2. Yes, I know about heartbeats and brain waves. But I believe once fertilization happens that zygote becomes a living soul and you can't measure that.

3. Deformities--God has a plan for every child conceived. I've known many who weren't born "perfect" and maybe couldn't communicate/function in a "normal" way but that person(s) had a way of communicating God's love and purpose unlike my "normal" friends. And their parents didn't love them less b/c they were born w/disabilities. God love us and we're flawed as well. Should He have let us die before/at birth? No, b/c He had a plan.

Like I said just my .02. Take it or leave it.

Take care.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Johnv, are you trying to play God by deciding when life begins?

Where on earth did any of my posts in this thread even begin to imply that? Is October "Put words in Johnv's mouth" month??

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
The Silent Scream is not a falsehood. That's just your opinion, Johnv, and opinions don't necessarily equate to facts.

Wrong. My statements are fact, not opinion. It is a lie. Anyone who espouses Silent Scream, upon knowning the facts, [snipped] are knowingly esposing a lie.

From Web MD: A normal fetal heart rate ranges from 120 to 160 beats per minute.

Not exactly. You're correct, but for the wrong stage of pregnancy. A rate of 140 is the normal heartrate in the latter half of pregnancy. At 12 weeks (the age of the fetus in Silent Scream) a rate of 200 is normal.

I have successfully refuted your claim with facts. proving that the Silent Scream movie is false on that topic. Would you like to comment on the other false claims that I refuted with facts?

I do remember previous debates on this board with you, Johnv, on this subject and what your position was at that time, in spite of numerous informational sources posted to refute your views about abortion.

I will make this abundantly clear:

I AM AGAINST ALL ELECTIVE ABORTION. PERIOD.

At any rate, you can discredit Silent Scream or anything else you want to discredit. It doesn't change the fact that abortion is murder.

I agree with you 100%. Elective abortion is, imo, killing of an innocent, and therefore murder. That doesn't change the fact and I do mean FACT that the movie Silent Scream is a lie, a fraud, and a bad witness for Christians to reference. By referencing it, especially knowing it's a lie, we ourselves become liars, and we do great damage to the Christian witness.

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
That is absolutely untrue, and you ought to know better. I do not, as a parent, have any right to murder my child. Neither should these mothers.

I'm not saying you, nor anyone else, has that right. I'm simply saying that decisions that affect the child are the responsibility of the parents. If the parents make a willful decision that causes unwarranted harm to the child, the parent is liable for that action. I never said that a parent has a right to kill a child, regardless of he abortion issue.

Originally posted by TexasSky:
John, Would the zygote of your hamster grow into a human being if left alone and not destroyed by artifical means?

I didn't make the hamster comment. Someone else did.

[ October 27, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[Bunyon]

"Regardless of one's views on abortion overall, it cannot be denied that it is a sentient being once brainwaves are present, and an elective abortion from this point on would be unwarranted"-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Johv, I may have missunderstood you, but I am sure you can see how this statement could lead one to think you are only against abortion after brainwaves are present, but you did clearify. So good for you.

 

[Bunyon]

"It really flummoxes me why pro-life people so desperately want it to be true that Plan B is an abortifacient. I think it is good news that it is not."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Petrel, did you read the last two sentences in my post. You should. I'll check things out later, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but don't assume nursing journals are immune from bad studies and propganda. Like I said. It could be true. We will see.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Ok Johv, I may have missunderstood you, but I am sure you can see how this statement could lead one to think you are only against abortion after brainwaves are present, but you did clearify. So good for you.

No problem, no harm done. Thanks for helping clarify.

 

[TexasSky]

John,

My apologies to you. I thought you made the hamster remark.

 

[Johnv]

No problem, TS. I actually don't like hamsters. Too many years cleaning the kids' cages... uhh, not the kids, their hamsters.

 

[LadyEagle]

Wrong. My statements are fact, not opinion. It is a lie. Anyone who espouses Silent Scream, upon knowning the facts, is hence a liar, because they are knowingly esposing a lie.

Calling me a liar, as you know, is against the board rules. However, you seem to believe you can get by with it.

You have stated your opinions about Silent Scream and are claiming them as facts but you have not disproved anything about the film Silent Scream, only your opinion.

Hence, I will ask another moderator to look at your comments to decide if any action needs done. I reject your namecalling.

 

[LadyEagle]

Oh, and by the way, Johnv, I noticed that your documentation regarding fetal heart rate and nearly all your other negative points about the so-called lie Silent Scream are uncannily similar to what's printed on the Planned Parenthood refutation of the same film.....


CLICK HERE

Pretty much what I figured...

Planned Parenthood would do ANYTHING to keep the REAL truth from people about abortion, since they are the biggest perpetrators of zygote/embryo/fetal murder. Sorry you feel it necessary to take their side and call me the liar.

 

[TexasSky]

Regarding "Silent Scream."
I do not know if it is or is not accurate.

I do know that according to the University of Washington the nervous system begins with embryonic tissue called ectoderm. The neural plate has formed by about the 16th day of development. Within days of this the neural groove is formed, and by the 21st day a neural tube has formed when the edges of the groove meet. The front part of that tube develops into the brain, the rest develops into the spinal cord.

According to Dr. Arnold B. Scheibel, in "Embryological Development of the Human Brain" during the intrauterine period of life almost twice as many neurons as are needed are produced, and as the FINAL months of pregnancy near these phase out. Approximately 50,000 cells are produced during every second of intrauterine life just to produce the neurons needed.

According to this same article - when a sperm fertilizes an egg to forum an ovum the ovum has has complete set of genes . From the mother the ovum receives mitochondria to supply energy and carry genetic codes.

Within 24 hours after fertilization the cell divides into 2 cell, and within another 24 hours it is an embryo.

Each cell contains three types of tissue. "Ecotoderm" for skin, hair, nails, and the nervous sytem . Mesoderm for great muscle mass, and endoderm for the lining of organs and vessels.

 

[Debby in Philly]

In answer to the OP, it is because even murder is a crime against the state, not the federal government.

As for the rest of the argument, forget all the medical terminology. We reproduce after our kind, as the Bible says. The "thing" growing inside a human mother can only be human. It's not a tadpole, it's not a puppy, IT'S A BABY! And as such it is a human being, with a soul, no matter how small.

To me, that's just common sense - nothing scientific or religous. Where other people get the idea it's something else are just plain deceived by the evil one.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
I noticed that your documentation regarding fetal heart rate and nearly all your other negative points about the so-called lie Silent Scream are uncannily similar to what's printed on the Planned Parenthood refutation of the same film.....

I wasn't aware of that. I hadn't visited the site, but my responses came from a notepad document I had written about Silent Scream in the past. It's likely that the PP site got their data from similar sourcecs than I originally did.

Planned Parenthood would do ANYTHING to keep the REAL truth from people about abortion

I have no love for PP oprganization. But facts are facts. I'm not going to ignore the facts about the fraudulent film Silent Scream just because PP happens to concur.

LE, if you truly believe SIlent Scream to be factual, then perhaps you could address the specific statemenets I made, and cite evidence to the contrary. Until then, you're just choosing to believe a lie. Is that scriptural?

I don't expect you to address the specific facts I listed. You almost never do whenever we have a conversation like this. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong in this case. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, don't hold your breath, Johnv, because the fact is, I didn't list Silent Scream as a source - I listed a website which had the film Silent Scream on it as well as a lot of other things. YOU chose to pick Silent Scream to trash on out of many good references listed on that site.

The fact remains, you called me a liar. I may be a lot of things, and I may be misguided about some issues, but I am not a liar.

But facts are facts. I'm not going to ignore the facts about the fraudulent film Silent Scream just because PP happens to concur.

If PP "happens" to concur with your notepad, and since your notes have the familiar ring of the PP web site, then one would come to the logical conclusion that is where your notes originated, whether yesterday or several years ago. The fact that PP "happens" to concur with your opinion is enough reason for me to discard your "facts" on this subject as utter nonsense. I believe you are choosing to believe a lie - the most hideous of lies - lies that seek to justify murder of thousands of innocent lives.

 

[LadyEagle]

PS: Since you are so concerned about Silent Scream, why don't you start a thread entitled "the lie of Silent Scream film" or something like that? Then you could blast away without derailing this thread any further than it is already derailed.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Well, don't hold your breath, Johnv, because the fact is, I didn't list Silent Scream as a source

Granted. That wasn't the issue, though. You claimed that the movie is truthful, in response to my post citing errors in the movie. You refuse to rebut those points (actually, you attempted to rebut one, but your statement turned out to be wrong).

YOU chose to pick Silent Scream to trash on out of many good references listed on that site.

Yes I did. I have no problem with the other references. I have a problem with the Silent Scream fraud being peddled as truth. It's bad witness for the Christian.

The fact remains, you called me a liar.

I don't think I did. Perhaps I hit a nerve. If you can demonstrate that the points cited about Silent Scream are not false, but true as the film purports, then it will refute my claim that the film is a lie. But you're choosing not to do that. In fact, you're going out of your way to avoid doing that. I suspect you are doing this because the points I listed are indesputable.

I may be a lot of things, and I may be misguided about some issues, but I am not a liar.

Then look at facts for yourself. Prove to everyone that this is just a case of you being misguided, which I suspect is likely the case. Innocent enough. I've been misguided myself often enough, and been challenged when presented facts by others on the board.

I believe you are choosing to believe a lie

Then list the facts for yourself.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Since you are so concerned about Silent Scream, why don't you start a thread entitled "the lie of Silent Scream film" or something like that? Then you could blast away without derailing this thread any further than it is already derailed.

The topic is abortion. I'm against abortion, as are you. I'm satisfied with the topic remaining here, since it's on topic. You're welcome, however, to start a separate thread yourself if you like.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
The fact that PP "happens" to concur with your opinion is enough reason for me to discard your "facts" on this subject as utter nonsense.

Logical fallacy--"poisoning the well." You can't just decide something is not a fact because it is stated by a source you don't agree with.

I don't see the reason for being so agitated since everyone here has said they oppose abortion. Let's all take a deep breath!

 

[Bunyon]

I agree with Jonv, IF, I said If, "Silent Scream" is non-factual we should disown it. Maybe, Johnv, you should give us some sources that we can trust to back up you assertions. I have never heard anyone say it was a lie before. So I am inclined to think that you are mistaken, but if you are right I would like to know so I never make the mistake of citing the film and hurting the cause.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Maybe, Johnv, you should give us some sources that we can trust to back up you assertions. I have never heard anyone say it was a lie before.

Sure, I can name a few off the top of my head.

The SS claim that a 12-week fetus experiences pain has been acknowleged by the National Right to Life organization as being false.

Also, while doing a book tour for"The Hand of God", Bernard Nathanson, who created SS, acknowleged in a 1996 NBC (I believe it was the Today Show) interview that SS was a doctored presentation, incuding the 18 week old fetus model for a 12 week old, brain waves not occuring until 24 weeks, the claims that the fetus can move at will, and slowing and speeding up of the film.

Again, I need to make it clear that I stand firmly against elective abortions. My point has been that we need to be credible in our witness. "Silent Scream" is not credible witness material.

That's all for now. I've having dinner with my oldest daughter and must run...